X-Message-Number: 18679
From: "John de Rivaz" <>
References: <>
Subject: Re: CryoNet #18664 Martinots face execution in France
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 15:24:38 -0000

> Message #18664
> From: Jessica <>
> Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 12:41:58 +0000
> Subject: Re: Martinots face execution in France
>
> On 27-Feb-02, John de Rivaz wrote:
>
> > Please do not mention National Socialism by name - this
> > seems to be a non productive thing to do these days.
>
> ??
> What is the link between National Socialism and this news story?
>
> Jessica

The link is imposing scientific ideas by force - you are in trouble in the
scientific ideas turn out to by misled, as were eugenics and so on. The
following item from sci.cryonics is on a long running thread about
compulsory post mortem dissections. Gardner is persistent in arguing the
case for compulsion, but he finds hurling abuse and threats easier than
answering any of the points. My comments that follow concern this matter of
compulsion.

"Simon Gardner" <[dot]co[dot]uk> wrote in message
news:
> To summarize the thread [again]:
>
> Rivers and his nutty band persist in maintaining (in various guises) that
> corpses have "feelings", "fears", "concerns", "worries" and feel
> "distress". When challenged that this is balderdash (which it is) he
feigns
> innocence and denies it. But in the next breath he restates this
silliness.
>

Or putting it another way, Gardener and his friends believe that they have
sure and certain knowledge that there is no God and that cryonics will never
work.

Suppose that they are right on both counts. In which case in a few years
when we are all dead, dissected and buried, or dead and cryopreserved, it
makes no difference to any of us. <del> If you are so sure of your argument,
why bother to issue insults
and incitements? Your arguments should stand by their pure force of logic.

Suppose that they are wrong on either count, and furthermore suppose that
religion is real and for some reason I can't understand it does make a
difference whether someone is dissected or not as to what God can offer. In
that case their dissections have destroyed or damaged the "immortal souls"
of individuals.

Suppose that they are wrong on the cryonics count, and in 100 years or so
cryonics revivals of people from the early 21st century are unremarkable and
commonplace. With the 20:20 vision of hindsight, won't people in the 22nd
century have a pretty dim view of them and the people enforcing the
dissection laws? *** Not because they got it wrong, but because they
enforced
their ideas on other people to the physical detriment of these people.***
And
don't say that they are corpses are not people, because in a universe that
supports the cryonics freeze-wait-reanimate cycle they would be people not
corpses. That is the instance this particular paragraph is discussing.

I do not have sure and certain knowledge that cryonics will work, and I
don't have sure and certain knowledge that religion is bunk, and I don't
have sure and certain knowledge that the sub-set of religion that is
concerned with disrespect for dead bodies is bunk.

I do think that cryonics *just might* work, and I am not able to accept any
of the evidence that has so far been presented that there may be some basis
for religion. But I am not so arrogant to claim sure and certain knowledge
about any of these thoughts. If I was in a position to enforce my views on
other people I just hope that I would not be so absolutely corrupted by the
"high" of having power over other people that I would do so.

If Mr Gardener and his colleagues want to donate their corpses to legal and
medical research then fine, let them. If Wayne and his colleagues wants
their bodies to be donated to be treated in the manner prescribed by his
religious beliefs then let him. If a few people want their bodies to be used
for the cryonics experiment, then let them. There will still be more than
enough corpses for legal and medical research than there are competent
pathologists to dissect them.

Yes, there are conflicts of interest between the individual and society
here, but society is made up of individuals, and as far as people's bodies
are concerned these are the most fundamental possession that they have.

--
Sincerely, John de Rivaz:      http://www.deRivaz.com
my homepage links to Longevity Report, Fractal Report, music, Inventors'
report, an autobio and various other projects:
http://www.geocities.com/longevityrpt
http://www.autopsychoice.com - http://www.cryonics-europe.org -
http://www.porthtowan.com

Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=18679