X-Message-Number: 18713 From: "D Pizer" <> References: <> Subject: Avoiding Autopsy Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 18:24:36 -0500 Reply to posting by "Joseph W. Morgan" > Subject: Avoiding Autopsy > Since the topic has come up again, I repeat my unanswered question: How do you avoid an autopsy (dissection) which destroys your chance of reanimation? There are some scenarios where one may not be able to avoid autopsy. In most states if the body is considered a victim of a homicide, or just an unexplained death, an autopsy is going to be done. Also dying suddenly, even though you are sick, may trigger an autopsy. At present there is a legal/moral conflict between the rights of a cryonicist to not have an autopsy and the rights of the state to perform one and look for the causes of sudden death. (We expect the state to try to solve crimes). From our viewpoint as cryonicists we would see our position as prevailing because autopsy may cancel out our chances of future reanimation. From the state's position they see the need to find explanations as more important than "dead" bodies getting frozen quickly. As cryonics technology advances, we should be prepared to litigate (I think legislation would be harder) to protect our right to a fast suspension. The time will come someday in the future when we can produce some respected scientists that will testify that there is a good chance that frozen people are not dead if they are frozen quick enough, and there is a good chance they can be reanimated in the future. We need that before we can proceed in this area. ------------ Knowing this several years ago, along with several other considerations, mainly our deepest convictions on certain issues, Mike Perry and I started a religion called The Society for Venturism. Our members advocate to try to overcome death through technological means, and to try to do what is right. We secured a government approval, of sorts, by getting our legal 501c-3 status. We suggest that our members carry a card showing their membership and also fill out the "certificate of religious conviction" supplied by your local cryonics storage company. In a close call case, this may help avoid autopsy.??????? ---------- When we moved Alcor to Arizona, President Steve Bridge and I (I was the VP), met the local coroner (or maybe his title is medical director), and explained cryonics and Alcor's position in Arizona. He told us that he would treat cryonics members like organ donors. That means they get a fast autopsy and only the minimum needed. (There are various types of autopsies from a look over to the most horrible you might imagine - even slicing up the brain). I don't know if he is still in charge or still holds this position. It has been some years and that political office had undergone a lot of turmoil just before he got the job. The previous few heads of that department had been involved in some scandals along with some of the local funeral companies. I can't remember what it was all about, but the coroner we met was a serious man who seemed fair minded and wanted to clean things up - so to speak. Probably Alcor's new officers should meet him and get to know him. Steve was very good at understanding all the bureaucrats' obligations that we had to deal with. Steve was respectful of them and worked with them to try to find ways they could meet their obligations and still be acceptable with us. I think Steve was good at this because he had worked before at a library and knew how public employees had to follow all kinds of rules. I came from a business background and was pretty good at finding ways around rules without doing anything wrong. Together we did OK. From what I have met with Alcor's new president, Dr. Jerry Lemler, he seems very diplomatic (but not a pushover), and I think he would have as good a shot as anyone in a coroner's case of getting things done quickly. ---------- If you want a case history, I remember when Jerry Leaf died suddenly. We wanted to freeze him quickly and the (this was in California) local coroner wanted to do an autopsy. Carlos (was president then) and several of us on the board had to weigh the decisions of freezing him without the autopsy and taking the chance that the coroner would get him unfrozen and do the autopsy anyhow versus letting the coroner do the autopsy first as fast as possible. Carlos got the coroner to go to Jerry and do the autopsy quickly. It was the best we felt we could do under the circumstances. I think the delay cost several hours. There is always some time needed for Alcor to set up for a suspension and even if an autopsy is being done, Alcor is still preparing while it is being done. ---------- The things you can do to try to help your personal situation. 1. Support your cryonics company. Make donations towards things you would like them to work on. (For instance, you might donate to pay the cost of a campaign to educate the local coroner about cryonics.) 2. Make your cryonics desires known to everyone. This includes a hospital if you go in for treatment. 3. Go meet your local coroner and explain your cryonics desires to him/her. If he/she says he/she will respect your wishes and try to give you organ donor status, that may be the best you can get at these early times in cryonics. If your coroner is unsympathetic or hostile, move. 4. Sign up with the Venturist organization and execute a certificate of religious belief with your suspension organization. 5. Let everyone in your community know of your cryonics intentions and at the same time show public respect for their beliefs and desires even if they conflict with yours. In a small enough community your previous actions may carry some weight in helping get respect for your last wishes. 6. Keep your fingers crossed at all times. David Pizer Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=18713