X-Message-Number: 1916 From: (Thomas Donaldson) Subject: Re: cryonics: #1909-#1912 Date: Mon, 8 Mar 93 2:46:40 PST Some questions and comments: To Mike: I understand your frustration about Alcor. I too am worried by Alcor's future fate, though perhaps I accept that worry as part of being a member (I'm much more worried about MY future fate, after all! :-) ). Your discussion opens a number of questions. Suppose that Alcor charged dues to members on the basis of their age when joining, not as a form of insurance but according to the number of years before or after the average age of Alcor's members. That is, if someone joins when terminal at the age of 60, and the average age of Alcor members is 30, they would have to pay dues (or joining fees???) for 30 years, plus interest. Would you then feel that last-minute members were exploiting us? (As most readers know, I've been opposed to letting in people at the last minute for a long time. This is a bit of an extension to that idea). Second, you describe your staff for Cryovita's experiments. How many of these people would charge at the same rate if they would have to do real suspensions? For that matter, just what do you pay them now? I find it impossible to evaluate your statements about this without knowing more about charges and availability in emergencies. Third, you raise the possibility of self-insurance. As both of us remember, this issue arose several years ago, when Alcor was much smaller. At that time, one of the obstacles was that Alcor would become an insurance company in the eyes of California law. To do that, Alcor would have to have a LARGE amount of money as capital, even before any insurance policies were written at all. Has this obstacle disappeared? Do you, or does anyone, have a plan to make it go away? Is there any US state or foreign nation that would let Alcor operate as an insurance company IN THE US with its present funding? Clearly Alcor now controls more money in its Suspension Fund; but it's not at all clear to me that the Suspension Fund would be accepted as this capital, or that we would want it to be. In one sense, as I will discuss when we all get together in May, I agree with Mark Voelker that suspension (meaning the operation) should be separated from storage. That might help the professionalism problem (assuming that we can find professionals to do the actual suspensions!). However the real purpose of Alcor is longterm storage (all organization as a nonprofit organization etc etc aside); to take THAT function away is basically to abolish Alcor, of which I am not in favor. To Ralph Whelan: You have stated that volunteers who don't live close to Alcor have been more trouble than they were worth. Is this a statement about how they were organized, or a statement that there is NO WAY AT ALL that volunteers can help? If it is the latter, can you or anyone else provide more argument? (You must argue not that it didn't work in the past, but that there is no possible way it can be made to work, a much stronger argument). To Marvin Minsky: Welcome. It isn't an issue of loss of oxygen so much as the fact that as your temperature goes down (even if it is well above freezing) you can withstand longer and longer periods without oxygen. This is actually very well known; it is the reason that First Aid courses tell the students to look for signs of hypothermia, and why we constantly hear, during winter, stories of people being revived after a "long" time (say, an hour or more) in freezing water. If your body does not need the oxygen, then there's no need to deliver it. To Mike and Ralph both: Please understand that I'm asking QUESTIONS rather than making arguments. It seems to me that my questions arise rationally. I also know that there's been far too much bickering here lately, and you might both automatically treat my questions as one more argument. That would be unfortunate for us both, since I would be left with less knowledge and you would have (if anything) cast suspicion on how well you've thought out your proposals/statements. Best wishes, and long life, Thomas Donaldson Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=1916