X-Message-Number: 19407
Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 19:06:28 -0700
From: "John Grigg" <>
Subject: Religion and cryonics

James wrote:
John, I love ya buddy but you really really need to join the 21st 

I think you are also a great guy!  But I thought I already had joined the new 
millennia by using the net. lol  Now does finally having a digital 
camera(through a promotional deal) count for anything?  I just have to be 
me+(me)! : )  

you continue:
Lastly, John, please don't feel bad about what I say. It is not 
an attack on you. You know I am your friend and care for you. I 
say these things from serious concern that these beliefs you hold 
could, as you have admitted, lead you to leave behind cryonics and 
extropianism and I believe this would be your ultimate and final destruction.

I understand you are not being personal, and that you actually care about my 
well-being.  The "call" of what I was raised in is very strong.  I wonder how 
many of you would give up cryonics if you were still young and a 
beautiful(inside and out) woman came along and said she would share her life 
with you forever(in a religious sense) but that you had to give up cryonics?  It
would be a very hard choice for me.  I'm just being honest.

Mark Buddle wrote:
Cryonicists owe it to humanity to keep them from blithely drifting 
off into oblivion.  

I didn't realize this was our responsibility!! : (  We have our work cut out for
ourselves!  I think the solution is to steal an advertising idea from beer 
commercials!  We will need tv and magazine ads showing 

how cryonics is synonymous with bikini clad gorgeous women having a good time on
the beach!!  If we only had the funding, Madison Avenue could do it NO problem.

Robert Ettinger and other cryonicists + Swedish Bikini Team + Malibu Beach + big
cold dewar of liquid nitrogen + Crack tv commercial film crew= SUCCESS!!!

It could happen.

you continue:
In fact, we need as many people as we can get, 
 because we all know there will be greater strength and ultimately 
success of cryonics if we have greater numbers.

I agree, but there is also something good about keeping a low profile in today's
turbulant world.

you continue:
  I am very tired 
of the diplomatic approach that so many have suggested when dealing 
with those who have not signed up for cryonic suspension.  Those 
who have not signed up, especially Christians, need to be hit and 
hit hard with the "what if" question.  In fact, they need to have 
it put to them so bluntly, that their blood runs cold and terror 
fills their hearts like the though of death does to the rest of 

What a wonderful notion you have here. lol!  Hey!  It did work for the "Scared 
Straight" program(but that was reforming troubled teens by taking them to 
prisons)!  At one time I was given a full tour of a mortuary by a friend who ran
it, but that did not destroy my belief in an afterlife. lol  I must ask, would 
you have the staff of "The Skeptic" design an advertising campaign for you in 
this endeavor??     

you continue:
Lets go everybody its time to load the ark! 

As an atheist you need to watch out for these Biblical metaphors!! : )  

Robert Ettinger wrote:
2. "Everybody  wants to go to Heaven, but no one is in a hurry to get there." 
Religious people are only slightly less inclined than others to take 
advantage of medical interventions to save and extend life.

A VERY good point!!  I have several friends approaching late middle age and 
though religious, they are getting quite nervous about how some of their peers 
have already died.  Seeing the doctor happens to be a priority with them! lol  

As Robert and others have already pointed out, the real problem is that science 
cannot at this point(or anytime really soon) bring the cryosuspended back to the
realm of the living!  This, combined with the "Dr. Frankenstein's lab" 
vibe(going against God's laws and the societal pressure which goes along with 
that) many people get from cryonics, is why this medical intervention has been a
hard sell.  

But I do not see "bashing religion" as the solution to this at all.  We must 
instead show how cryonics complements life AND religion.  Of course it will not 
be easy.   

he continues:
There was a very amusing article recently in the L.A. Times (mentioned by 
Mark Plus, I think) about a large segment of modern churches, which hire PR 
firms to do marketing surveys. Their parishioners are not interested in talk 
about hell-fire, but in convenient parking and baby-sitting services and 
practical questions of social policy; they shop and change churches like they 
shop and change grocery markets. Almost all churches adapt--sooner or later, 
more or less--and I guarantee you that most of them will adapt to cryonics 

I doubt many will actually adopt cryonics as a part of their doctrine, but they 
will hopefully at least see it in a mostly neutral light.  That would be good 
enough for me.

he continues:
Don't attack religion--just promote cryonics.

Amen to that!!! : )

David Stoldosky wrote:
It could be argued that such discussion simply does not belong on Cryonet.
I am sympathetic to this view and I am ready to set up a list to deal with
the social aspects of cryonics. A, probably too wordy, list charter is
given below. I am looking forward to suggestions for revision, expressions
of interest in joining, etc.

I would like to join your list.  It sounds like a good thing.

Dani Kollin wrote;
I am convinced that you
could persuade them that they could do a whole lot
more good in this world by sticking around a little
longer. You might even argue that it would be selfish
of them to die early (and therefore not help others)
when the possibility of living longer is within their

Dani, I like how you think! lol  Robert Ettinger has also thought along these 
lines.  But I really believe this subject needs to be thoroughly examined and 
fleshed out.

Brett Bellmore wrote:
This, then, is the real obstacle to the promotion of cryonics: Lack of
evidence that it will work. Now, I'm willing to take a gamble, based on
theory and supposition, and nothing more. So are we all. But that's not a
common attitude at all, and we can not reasonably expect that cryonics will
become an accepted medical practice until we have experimentally
demonstrated that it works. Which is, after all, how all other medical
practices become accepted. On the day we revive a higher organism from
cryonic suspension, we will achieve acceptance. Not before.

I tend to disagree with you on this.  Yes, being able to bring people back would
cause the GREAT leap forward, but with just better scientific verification of 
suspension methods, combined with a topnotch and very expensive 
advertising/public relations campaign, we could see our numbers greatly swell.

I want to close by saying religion is very important to me, and so is cryonics.
And it will be crucially important to me, as well as to some of you, to see a 
reconciliation of the two.  

As has been said before, religion bashing is not the answer, and I think as time
goes by this will be proven true.    

Times are good for cryonics.  Growing numbers, excellent leadership, promising 
research, and some very influential and affluent patrons of the movement with 
exciting goals make for an exciting present and future. 

I love you guys!  : )

best wishes,


Supercharge your e-mail with a 25MB Inbox, POP3 Access, No Ads
and NoTaglines --> LYCOS MAIL PLUS.

Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=19407