X-Message-Number: 19589
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 06:29:46 -0700
From: James Swayze <>
Subject: Re: Fwd: CryoNet message _not_ queued--[Re: Religionist attacks 
References: <>

Robin Miller wrote:

> (I'm forwarding this as I'm not yet a CryoNet subscriber, but a lurker, and my
posting attempt bounced.
> --Boundless life!)

> ------------- Forwarded message follows -------------From: "Robin Miller" 
> Subject: #19580 Religionist attacks cryonics
> James:  the heavy lifting's already been done: from
> http://avoyagetoarcturus.blogspot.com/  here's Jay Manifold's
> commentary.  [I have formatted it for this forum: Siemon-Netto gets >,
> scripture gets *, and of course, Jay Manifold is unmarked.]
> While browsing UPI, I happened upon Commentary: Presuming God
>  at -320 degrees, by UPI Religion Correspondent Uwe
>  Siemon-Netto, who profoundly disapproves of the cryogenic
>  freezing of Ted Williams:


Thanks. I actually had read this but still felt that the dear reverend Netto 
needed a dressing down from

one of our ilk. I was, however, so insensed that I knew I'd say something very 
acidic. Jay Manifold, as far

as I know, is merely sympathetic ("I am both a "proponent" (or at least an 
allower) of cryonics") to the

freedom issue regarding cryonicist's rights to self determination. I don't think
he is a cryonicist. He

does seem instead to be an avowed Christian, albeit  one more rational than 
most. Not that being a

Christian or a cryonicist are mutually exclusive of each other but unfortunately
so morons like Netto seem
to think they must be. We should invite Jay to join us.

Netto is a coward that merely fears the loss of power the churches will face 
when cryonics and extreme life

extension become mainstream. I see a major religious upheaval coming and I only 
hope our love of and

respect for life meme sneaks up on the world so imperceptibly that the believers
that feel the same way as

Netto don't go to war with us. In other words I hope that our meme and human 
natural fear of death together

with education and mass public comprehension of technology's trends work to 
shape societal subconscious

thought well before any anti-life reaction to rational secular immortalism can 
begin to ramp up.

My entire family is Christian except for my stepbrother whom is also my 
caregiver for 23 years. Fortunately

they are Seventh Day Adventists and therefore believe in a more materialistic 
understanding of the soul.

They, in fact, don't believe in the Hollywood or spiritualism idea of a soul. To
them the soul is really,

and as the bible truly states, a result of the combining of matter (the dust 
Adam was allegedly formed

from) and the infusion of energy (the "breath of life" that God allegedly 
breathed in to Adam), that

"becomes a living soul". In other words the word "soul" in the bible really 
refers to the entire human

being, mind and body together. They believe that upon death the "breath of life"
returns to god but that

one's thoughts cease ("In that day your love also dies") and you are essentially
asleep awaiting the
"second coming".

Furthermore, if you get really technical about it, it states that only upon 
turning to dust the "breath of

life" returns to God. To me this can be argued to the Christian that it does not
return if we preserve the

body from turning to dust. However, it is key to point out that the "breath of 
life" in no way is the

spirit or essence or containing the personality of the dead person. The bible 
only supports the existence
of one ghost--the holy one--third prong of the trinity.

I have wanted for sometime to put together a persuasive document for our friends
that have Christian

spouses that are heretofore unwilling to sign up, urging them to try to get 
their spouse, if they insist

upon remaining Christian, to become Adventist or at the very least adopt the SDA
understanding of the true

meaning of the concept of soul and how the bible truly treats the subject of 

Although still effected to a slight degree by the strong societal meme "yuck 
factor" gut reaction to my

intentions, most of my family agrees or cannot argue against my contention that 
cryonics is no more

usurping God's plans than is heart resuscitation or for that matter simply 
taking an aspirin. Furthermore,

I cannot see how a loving God could object to a cryonics skeptical spouse just 
going ahead and simply

signing up, if only to placate the loving concerns of a committed cryonicist 
spouse. After all it is not

necessary that the skeptic of cryonics spouse actually believe it will work. In 
fact they may even hope
scretly that it won't.

What matters is that their loving spouse does believe and therefore is most 
understandably beset with grief

at the possibility of their loved one missing, as they may believe it so, the 
opportunity for eternal life.

Only the one need believe it will work. The one that doesn't should sign up only
to relieve contention in

their relationship and allay their loving spouses worst fears. They should not 
be concerned that it will

impede God's plans because their God is supposed to be omnipotent. If truly 
omnipotent then cryonics cannot

overpower God nor prevent eventual arrival to their believed afterlife--if it 
even exists.

If they understand the SDA interpretation of the bible's stance on death then 
they should understand that

no matter how long they remain in the cryonic state they will not be conscious 
of time's passing. They

needn't worry about suffering some hellish nightmare or lucid dreaming limbo nor
for that matter even the

Catholic concept of Limbo or Purgatory for these are not truly supported by the 
bible at all.

The cryonics skeptical spouse has two choices. Continue to hurt their cryonics 
believing loved one

needlessly or sign up as a very meaningful affirmation of their love. As we all 
know, if it works they will

have many more years to be with and love their spouse and this should be 
desirable or else they do not love

their spouse as much as they claim. The heaven they long for will still be 
there, still be a

possibility--if it truly does exist. If cryonics doesn't work then no harm no 
foul, in fact just the
opposite--spousal harmony, love and respect.


P.S. To learn the SDA position on the bible's treatment of death and the soul, 
complete with bible
references, simply google "state of the dead" +Seventh Day Adventist.

MY WEBSITE: http://www.geocities.com/~davidpascal/swayze/
A COLLECTION of photos of me and some of my artwork:

A RADIO INTERVIEW on Dr. J's ChangeSurfer Radio program with me and the father 
of cryonics Prof.

Robert Ettinger, author of "The Prospect of Immortality": 

A RELIGION I actually recommend: 
A FAVORITE quote: Last lines of the first Star Trek the Next Generation movie.

Capt. Picard: "What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived, 
after all Number One, we're
only mortal."
Will Ryker: "Speak for yourself captain, I intend to live forever!"

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