X-Message-Number: 19602
From: "peter tindale" <>
Subject: RE: CryoNet #19589 - #19594
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2002 17:03:29 -0700
Is anyone studying extremeophiles (the ones that can reanimate when heated
after being frozen for very long periods of time) from a cryonics
perspective?
A lot of good work has been done on them and may be helpful.
Sincerely, H Tindale.
-----Original Message-----
From: CryoNet [mailto:]
Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2002 2:00 AM
To:
Subject: CryoNet #19589 - #19594
CryoNet - Tue 23 Jul 2002
#19589: Re: Fwd: CryoNet message _not_ queued--[Re: Religionist attacks
[James Swayze]
#19590: Moronic San Diego anti-cryonics editorial [Driven FromThePack]
#19591: Another cell biologist mouthing off. [James Swayze]
#19592: And we thought _we_ were off the beaten path.... [Kennita
Watson]
#19593: Video of Dr. Jerry Lemler, Ted Williams and economics, Critics
are cold [ - KC Homes - www.iggy.net]
#19594: Another couple of bumper stickers :o) [ - KC
Homes - www.iggy.net]
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message #19589
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 06:29:46 -0700
From: James Swayze <>
Subject: Re: Fwd: CryoNet message _not_ queued--[Re: Religionist attacks
References: <>
Robin Miller wrote:
> (I'm forwarding this as I'm not yet a CryoNet subscriber, but a lurker,
and my posting attempt bounced.
> --Boundless life!)
> ------------- Forwarded message follows -------------From: "Robin Miller"
<>
> Subject: #19580 Religionist attacks cryonics
>
> James: the heavy lifting's already been done: from
> http://avoyagetoarcturus.blogspot.com/ here's Jay Manifold's
> commentary. [I have formatted it for this forum: Siemon-Netto gets >,
> scripture gets *, and of course, Jay Manifold is unmarked.]
>
>
> While browsing UPI, I happened upon Commentary: Presuming God
> at -320 degrees, by UPI Religion Correspondent Uwe
> Siemon-Netto, who profoundly disapproves of the cryogenic
> freezing of Ted Williams:
Robin,
Thanks. I actually had read this but still felt that the dear reverend Netto
needed a dressing down from
one of our ilk. I was, however, so insensed that I knew I'd say something
very acidic. Jay Manifold, as far
as I know, is merely sympathetic ("I am both a "proponent" (or at least an
allower) of cryonics") to the
freedom issue regarding cryonicist's rights to self determination. I don't
think he is a cryonicist. He
does seem instead to be an avowed Christian, albeit one more rational than
most. Not that being a
Christian or a cryonicist are mutually exclusive of each other but
unfortunately so morons like Netto seem
to think they must be. We should invite Jay to join us.
Netto is a coward that merely fears the loss of power the churches will face
when cryonics and extreme life
extension become mainstream. I see a major religious upheaval coming and I
only hope our love of and
respect for life meme sneaks up on the world so imperceptibly that the
believers that feel the same way as
Netto don't go to war with us. In other words I hope that our meme and human
natural fear of death together
with education and mass public comprehension of technology's trends work to
shape societal subconscious
thought well before any anti-life reaction to rational secular immortalism
can begin to ramp up.
My entire family is Christian except for my stepbrother whom is also my
caregiver for 23 years. Fortunately
they are Seventh Day Adventists and therefore believe in a more
materialistic understanding of the soul.
They, in fact, don't believe in the Hollywood or spiritualism idea of a
soul. To them the soul is really,
and as the bible truly states, a result of the combining of matter (the dust
Adam was allegedly formed
from) and the infusion of energy (the "breath of life" that God allegedly
breathed in to Adam), that
"becomes a living soul". In other words the word "soul" in the bible really
refers to the entire human
being, mind and body together. They believe that upon death the "breath of
life" returns to god but that
one's thoughts cease ("In that day your love also dies") and you are
essentially asleep awaiting the
"second coming".
Furthermore, if you get really technical about it, it states that only upon
turning to dust the "breath of
life" returns to God. To me this can be argued to the Christian that it does
not return if we preserve the
body from turning to dust. However, it is key to point out that the "breath
of life" in no way is the
spirit or essence or containing the personality of the dead person. The
bible only supports the existence
of one ghost--the holy one--third prong of the trinity.
I have wanted for sometime to put together a persuasive document for our
friends that have Christian
spouses that are heretofore unwilling to sign up, urging them to try to get
their spouse, if they insist
upon remaining Christian, to become Adventist or at the very least adopt the
SDA understanding of the true
meaning of the concept of soul and how the bible truly treats the subject of
death.
Although still effected to a slight degree by the strong societal meme "yuck
factor" gut reaction to my
intentions, most of my family agrees or cannot argue against my contention
that cryonics is no more
usurping God's plans than is heart resuscitation or for that matter simply
taking an aspirin. Furthermore,
I cannot see how a loving God could object to a cryonics skeptical spouse
just going ahead and simply
signing up, if only to placate the loving concerns of a committed cryonicist
spouse. After all it is not
necessary that the skeptic of cryonics spouse actually believe it will work.
In fact they may even hope
scretly that it won't.
What matters is that their loving spouse does believe and therefore is most
understandably beset with grief
at the possibility of their loved one missing, as they may believe it so,
the opportunity for eternal life.
Only the one need believe it will work. The one that doesn't should sign up
only to relieve contention in
their relationship and allay their loving spouses worst fears. They should
not be concerned that it will
impede God's plans because their God is supposed to be omnipotent. If truly
omnipotent then cryonics cannot
overpower God nor prevent eventual arrival to their believed afterlife--if
it even exists.
If they understand the SDA interpretation of the bible's stance on death
then they should understand that
no matter how long they remain in the cryonic state they will not be
conscious of time's passing. They
needn't worry about suffering some hellish nightmare or lucid dreaming limbo
nor for that matter even the
Catholic concept of Limbo or Purgatory for these are not truly supported by
the bible at all.
The cryonics skeptical spouse has two choices. Continue to hurt their
cryonics believing loved one
needlessly or sign up as a very meaningful affirmation of their love. As we
all know, if it works they will
have many more years to be with and love their spouse and this should be
desirable or else they do not love
their spouse as much as they claim. The heaven they long for will still be
there, still be a
possibility--if it truly does exist. If cryonics doesn't work then no harm
no foul, in fact just the
opposite--spousal harmony, love and respect.
James
P.S. To learn the SDA position on the bible's treatment of death and the
soul, complete with bible
references, simply google "state of the dead" +Seventh Day Adventist.
--
MY WEBSITE: http://www.geocities.com/~davidpascal/swayze/
A COLLECTION of photos of me and some of my artwork:
http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4292752723&code=2039335&mode=invite
A RADIO INTERVIEW on Dr. J's ChangeSurfer Radio program with me and the
father of cryonics Prof.
Robert Ettinger, author of "The Prospect of Immortality":
http://www.radio4all.net/proginfo.php?id=3728
A RELIGION I actually recommend:
http://uk.geocities.com/venturist2001/index.html
A FAVORITE quote: Last lines of the first Star Trek the Next Generation
movie.
Capt. Picard: "What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived,
after all Number One, we're
only mortal."
Will Ryker: "Speak for yourself captain, I intend to live forever!"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message #19590
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 06:57:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Driven FromThePack <>
Subject: Moronic San Diego anti-cryonics editorial
Excerpts from a moronic San Diego Union editorial
against cryonics:
>>
On immortality
Cryonics is a crime against natural order
July 17, 2002
....
Baseball legend Ted Williams' death has revealed to
the more gullible what they may take for a better way
to immortality: It's called cryonics and its advantage
is that it's not your mirror image that survives, as
in cloning, but really you.
Really?
People silly enough to seek physical immortality, if
that's not a contradiction in terms, have been cheered
by the hoopla around the slugger's new frozen home,
home at least for now as the family sorts things out.
More attention surely means more investment in
cryonics, which just may mean lead to an immortality
breakthrough.
You just never know. Dr. Jerry Lemler, head of the
Alcor Life Extension Foundation, Williams' home for
now, reminds us that people once laughed at Leonardo
and his flying machines, and just look at us now.
Even if freezing us for a few hundred years (actually,
all you really need is the head, and it's half price)
might bring the DNA breakthrough that would allow
science to recreate the body to screw back onto the
head (and this time no flat feet, please), why would
anyone want to do such a stupid thing? Once around is
enough for most of us.
Whatever science may one day be capable of doing,
scientists can never avoid the question, what should
they be doing? Did we need the hydrogen bomb? Do we
want to replace real parents and families with
laboratory cyborgs? Do we want to live to be 100, or
200 or forever, and do away with children altogether?
Poor Ted Williams deserves better than this and may
still be rescued from confusion over his will and the
wishes of his son (who reportedly hopes to cash in on
his father's gifts by selling his DNA) by other family
members with better judgment and taste.
....
Beyond that, however, is our conviction that cryonics
is one of the dumbest ideas we've ever come across.
Even if Williams' immortality were possible which it
never will be because of the impossibility of
recreating the millions of cells that constituted the
"Splendid Splinter" in, say, 1941, the year he hit
.406 who could wish such a thing?
Such an idea is an offense against human nature,
against natural law, against the natural order of all
life which allows creatures to be born, mature and
die, making place for the next generation. It is a
natural order praised by sacred books and celebrated
in life, art, political theory and science itself.
"For everything there is a season, and a time for
every matter under heaven:/ a time to be born, and a
time to die;/ a time to plant, and a time to pluck up
what is planted."
...
>>>>
The full editorial is here:
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/uniontrib/wed/opinion/news_1ed17bottom.ht
ml
You can send a response via the editorial pages using
this address:
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message #19591
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 12:36:13 -0700
From: James Swayze <>
Subject: Another cell biologist mouthing off.
Here is something I posted over at Rand Simberg's site. I don't know if he
is
signed up but he sure is defending cryonics with great effort and doing a
good
job. Someone only known as Jim and claiming to be a cellular biologist
posted
the quoted text below. I simply had to respond.
"Good Grief! I have to say that all this cryonics blather has really eroded
your
credibility."
The only blather and lack of credibility is yours, Jim. I am amazed you seem
never to have heard of nanotechnology. That's what's incredible about the
cellular and cryobiology people is that they have such a narrow scope. They
make
these blanket statements poopooing cryonics without so much as a smidgen of
the
knowledge even the amateurs, of which I am one, have on the subject.
"What makes anyone think that the techniques used today will facilitate
thawing
and bringing back to life later? It seems highly likely that the means used
today are more liekly to result in a very expensive memorial to the deceased
than to herald their return."
Would you agree that molecular manipulation of the building blocks of cells
is
going to be possible? Does it violate any physical laws? Do I get a yes and
then
a no? I should or again you haven't done your homework. Go here to study up
my
friend. http://www.merkle.com/
Next would you agree that routinely people are now brought back to life from
a
hypothermic state? Another 'yes' I suppose? Then if we can one day bring the
body cell by cell back to a pristine state while still quite cold then warm
it
up to the same temperature as hypothermic surgery, what pray tell what is
the
difference between the two?
"I would expect this kind of stuff on the floor of a star trek convention
from a
bunch of teenagers, but not from supposedly intelligent adult comentators."
Posted by jim at July 19, 2002 04:06 PM
If remaining childlike in our imagination means we have the foresight to see
the
wonderful possibilities the future holds then we my friend will live and you
won't and maybe the gene pool will be better for it.
*********
"No Hubris. I am just amazed at the star-eyed innocence displayed by those
who
believe that science has all answers and over time will be able to surmount
everything, even death."
Are you kidding me? Science not have all the answers? Since when does it
not? In
a past life your were a Cardinal chastising Galileo, right? Sure there may
be a
tiny few that we will never determine, like what existed before the big
bang, is
there really a god and a way to know it without doing to meet him/her and
such
as these but not much more than this. Everything can be reduced and deduced
and
little by little will be Mr. Jim. BTW, why didn't you have the intestinal
fortitude to post your email address?
"Perhaps science will one day allow for the cryopreservation of a body and
the
thawing and reviving of the same. I think it foolish to assume that today's
methods would facilitate that. In just freezing samples of tissue we can
experience huge losses. It is easy to freeze a homogenous cell suspension.
All
the cells can be preserved pretty well and losses can be minimized. Even
then,
viabilities of 90% would not be unreasonable, but such would be fatal for a
whole organism."
If you can admit that it might one day be possible then I suggest you get K.
Eric Drexler's book "The Engine's of Creation"
http://www.foresight.org/EOC/EOC_Chapter_9.html and Dr. Robert Freitas' book
"Nanomedicine" (visualize it here:
http://www.foresight.org/Nanomedicine/Gallery/index.html). I have them both,
in
fact Robert autographed his for me. Available at amazon.com.
"In a heterogeneous specimen different cell types have different
requirements
for storage. Amongst white blood cells, for instance, granulocytes have very
different requirements from mononucleated cells such as lymphocytes and
monocytes. A preperation which spares the latter cell types will effectively
destroy the former."
Yea yea yea, we concede the enormous damage. Despite that we strongly feel
we
will be able to piece by piece, molecule by molecule, atom by atom, rebuild
the
various cells. Read here for how even the brain can be repaired with
nanotech:
http://www.merkle.com/cryo/techFeas.html
"My point is simply that, while this might be a goal to aspire to, today it
is
nothing more than a scam for the fleecing of the star eyed futurist."
Be careful what you say Jim, it borders on libel. Cryonics is not a scam. To
say
something is a scam you must purport that those taking the money have
intentionally set out to defraud the customers. This is simply so wrong on
so
many levels it's near to blasphemy. Firstly, everyone involved is also a
member
themselves. The companies are non profit. The employees wages are abysmal
and so
the benefits unless you count being able to keep an eye on your relatives
and
friends to ensure their survival.
There are many more reasons why cryonics is not a scam but my case is
enough, I
believe, to dispel this myth for good. Please see the following (page down
to
the July 16 section): http://www.msnbc.com/news/750150.asp?0si=-. It tells
about
how the founder of cryonics donated $13,000.00 of his own estate to start my
cryonics fund. I am a quadriplegic and dependent on social security
disability.
Because of this it is illegal for me to have assets that could pay for
cryonics.
My health is too poor to obtain life insurance, the method most use to pay
for
it (contact info for cryonics insurance ).
If it's a scam wouldn't it be pointless to give away such a large sum toward
paying for it? Your accusation like all others is groundless and based on
ignorance.
"Even should the freezing and thawing of the body be successful, there is
the
additional assumption that science can still cheat death or cure diseases.
The
human genome project has not lead to cures but to a greater appreciation for
the
complexity of cell biology. Even long before the full genome was decoded,
genes
for diseases such as Huntington's Chorea have failed to lead to cures.
Transcribing the genome is only the first step."
Where have you been the last 50 years? Did you just get teleported from the
19th
century? I think maybe you guys that spend so much time in your one field
miss
out on the entire spectrum of development that's going one. I'll get to more
of
that later but for now let's do a thought experiment. Imagine that in all
the
billions upon billions possible worlds in the universe there actually is
life
elsewhere than here. Could we extrapolate what civilization development for
them
might be based upon our own experience?
Would you expect other civilizations to go through something akin to a
hunter-gather stage, then animal husbandry and agriculture? Would as it did
here
agriculture lead to trade? I expect so. Can we follow this line of
development
to include technological advancement? I think so. How about eventually the
development of science and technology to the level we have today? Now
imagine, I
know it's hard for you but I'll help ok? Again imagine that this
hypothetical
civilization is 1000 years or even 10,000 years beyond ours. Would you
expect
them to have conquered death? I would. I'd be very surprised if it was
otherwise.
Once a civilization reaches the point of manipulation of matter at the
atomic
level all bets are off. How can a disease remain a threat if nanobots course
through our bloodstream or even residing within each cell constantly
repairing
cellular damage? You really need to read Robert Freitas' book Nanomedicine
or
try to get the video "Cutting Edge Science" from The Learning Channel.
"Should we be able to cure disease, there will be the remaining question of
cellular aging. Dolly the sheep has shown signs of accelerated aging due to
the
shortened telomere length on her DNA. Unless there is therapy for that you
are
revived only to be back on death's door."
Oops! Again you missed the recent developments. Telomers have already been
rejuvenated and therapies are in our time being developed to rejuvenate a
human
being back to youthful vigor. Then there is tissue engineering and stem cell
tissue replacement therapy and then genetic manipulation to switch on our
body's
dormant amphibian DNA properties for limb regeneration. Ways to safely turn
genes on and off are being developed.
http://freedom.orlingrabbe.com/lfetimes/telomere.htm
"Lastly, let's assume that sometime in the distant future your dream becomes
reality and it is possible to revive these frozen corpses. In what is likely
to
be several centuries from now, how many people will be frozen? Who will pay
to
have these people thawed and treated? Will it not be within the realm of
possibility that the revivification of these people will be prevented to to
lack
of resources, financial or otherwise? Would you promote thawing out of
potentially thousands of people, who would be a drain on the society since
they
are functionally uneducated and quite possibly functionally illiterate due
to
changing language usage. Even if technology exists at some leter date there
is a
distinct possibilty that it will not be allowed."
Sure it's within the realm of possibility. Anything's possible. But it's not
in
the realm of probability. Here you need to get in touch with what we call
the
Singularity
http://www.kurzweilai.net/meme/frame.html?main=/articles/art0235.html?m%3D1.
Or ask yourself what the economy will be like when everyone has their own
replicater technology. Again we are back to nanotech. However, imagine
commanding your personal nanobots to create an apple for from dirt, water,
air
and some energy. Impossible you say? Nay, an apple seed does the same thing
but
it merely takes longer. Based on stereo lithography concepts an apple could
be
built by nanrobotics atom by atom before your very eyes. So could your
shelter,
clothing, transportation, etc. etc. What will you need money for? Costly to
revive people? Not very likely.
However, suppose it is expensive just the same. Ever heard of compound
interest?
Suppose the cryonics organizations have invested in technology stocks over
the
coming century or two you acquiesce might be the timeline for revival. How
much
would a $10,000.00 investment be worth by then? Can we say millions? Tens of
millions? How about more likely hundreds of millions?
Not be allowed? I suppose you are projecting this century's lack of respect
for
life onto the future. What do you base it on? It really miffs me when people
get
apocalyptic about the future. You accuse us of too much sci-fi enthusiasm
but
you seem to have too much sci-fi pessimism. Stop reading doomsday crap man!
You're likely to work subconsciously toward fulfillment of your dark
nightmares.
Garbage in equals garbage out. The proof is that here you are dissing
something
that is life affirming, respects life and seeks to perpetuate it for all.
Rather
than be constructive and contribute your talents and knowledge you prefer to
try
to drag it down.
How about that? What if all the naysayers could instead decide it was a
noble
goal and get on board and help out? How soon could we transform society? Not
just cryonics but the entire life extension phenomenom. How much more
appreciative of life would people be if they knew that barring terrible
accident
they could live and love for a thousand of years, perhaps more? What of war
or
of crime? Would people be so willing to die or send their children to die in
useless war? I think not. There would be so much more to lose... so much
more to
live for. Wouldn't it accelorate progress if knowledge encapsulated within a
fragile human vessel was not lost to oblivion in just a few short years? Are
these not noble goals? If so then tweak your memeset Jim, contribute!
"And while most anticipate some futuristic paradise, it is equally likely
that
you will wake to a futuristic servitude. The freedom we enjoy today is an
anomaly in human history. It would be very unlikely for you to wake up to
the
same situation."
I guess you're not a history buff. If you were then you'd have to notice,
I'm
surprised you don't anyway, that life is a lot better now than it was 2000,
1000, 500, 200, 100 even 50 years ago. How can you have missed the trends?
For a
really good source for interpreting the trends in technology and science
please
go here and study deeply. http://www.kurzweilai.net
"It just seems that there is a lot of unfounded optimism and very little
critical thought on what the barriers are and what the real outcomes might
be."
The lack of critical thought is in your camp fella. You have to know
something
to think critically about it but you have demonstrated incredible lack of
knowledge of the subject you purport expertise in. How on Earth could you
miss
all the work done these days on anti-aging, cell regeneration, tissue
engineering, gene therapy, therapeutic cloning and nanotechnology. What
remains
to be seen is if this ignorance is willful. Are you redeemable?
Serendipity happens and so the radio happens to be playing this very minute
The
Grateful Dead, "Please don't murder me." That's my admonition to you and all
the
cryonics naysayers. Either learn about it fully or shut the hell up before
your
memes end up murdering me, those I love and even the future.
James Swayze
--
MY WEBSITE: http://www.geocities.com/~davidpascal/swayze/
A COLLECTION of photos of me and some of my artwork:
http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4292752723&code=2039335&mode=invite
A RADIO INTERVIEW on Dr. J's ChangeSurfer Radio program with me and the
father
of cryonics Prof.
Robert Ettinger, author of "The Prospect of Immortality":
http://www.radio4all.net/proginfo.php?id=3728
A RELIGION I actually recommend:
http://uk.geocities.com/venturist2001/index.html
A FAVORITE quote: Last lines of the first Star Trek the Next Generation
movie.
Capt. Picard: "What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived,
after all Number One, we're
only mortal."
Will Ryker: "Speak for yourself captain, I intend to live forever!"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message #19592
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 17:42:02 -0700
From: Kennita Watson <>
Subject: And we thought _we_ were off the beaten path....
http://www.timetravelfund.com/
--
May you live long and prosper,
Kennita
--
Kennita Watson | Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery;
| None but ourselves can free our minds.
http://www.kennita.com | -- Bob Marley, "Redemption Song"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message #19593
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 20:20:13 -0500
From: " - KC Homes - www.iggy.net" <>
Subject: Video of Dr. Jerry Lemler, Ted Williams and economics, Critics are
cold
Today's links related to Ted Williams:
**********************
[ONLY MICROSOFT MEDIA PLAYER WORKS ON THIS ONE :o(] - Sports Illustrated -
Video of Dr. Jerry Lemler, the director of the Alcor Life Extension
Foundation, outlines the processes and goals of cryonics. Alcor allegedly
has the body of Ted Williams.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/pr/video/sports/2002/07/19/cnn_lemler_cryon
ics.js.html
**********************
Florida, where Red Sox legend Ted Williams died, gives the heirs of
celebrities up to 40 years of legal protection for stars' images. A few
other states go further. Most, including Massachusetts and New York, have no
special protections, but legal specialists say they are probably obliged to
respect the rights granted in other states. Neither John-Henry Williams nor
Claudia Williams, children of the baseball hall-of-famer by his third wife,
has said Ted Williams's image will be available for advertising or
souvenirs:
http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/203/metro/Image_use_laws_could_benefit_Wil
liams_family+.shtml
**********************
Art Stewart has been in professional baseball for 50 years and considers Ted
Williams, whose corpse is freezing at a cryonics warehouse in Arizona --
perhaps awaiting an unlikely comeback -- the greatest hitter he ever saw.
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascitystar/sports/3703220.htm
**********************
Ted Williams Avid Fisherman
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/local/states/florida/counties/monr
oe_county/cities_neighborhoods/florida_keys/3703552.htm
**********************
Sincerely,
IGGY Dybal
Your Real Estate Consultant - Kansas City - RE/MAX Best
E-mail: mailto: Web site: http://www.iggy.net
Office: 913-894-4024 Toll-free: 877-550-IGGY/4449
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message #19594
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 21:14:32 -0500
From: " - KC Homes - www.iggy.net" <>
Subject: Another couple of bumper stickers :o)
Dying is not cool - cryonics is.
I am cool as a cryo cucumber.
Sincerely,
IGGY Dybal
Your Real Estate Consultant - Kansas City - RE/MAX Best
E-mail: mailto: Web site: http://www.iggy.net
Office: 913-894-4024 Toll-free: 877-550-IGGY/4449
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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