X-Message-Number: 19719
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 00:50:54 -0700
From: "John Grigg" <>
Subject: Dr. Nick Bostrom on the Art Bell show!
Hello everyone,
This is a post I originally wrote for the extrolist, but I think many of you
would enjoy my review of Nick Bostrom's interview on the Art Bell show. Nick is
one of the brightest minds on the extrolist(when he has the time to post), and
he is presently teaching at Yale.
best wishes,
John
I had tuned in an hour late to the Art Bell show(I caught the show in its
entirety when they repeated it later), only to hear a familiar sounding voice
from the special guest. At first I actually thought "this guy almost sounds
like Anders!" But than the host George Noory introduced the guest as Dr. Nick
Bostrom!! I nearly fell off my bicycle as I heard this! I actually let out a
yell to show my great pleasure.
I had met Nick at Extro-5. He surprised me by being Swedish, and not English!
lol Because he studied and taught in England, I thought he originally hailed
from there. My mistake!
Anders Sandberg and Nick were intellectual peas in a pod at the conference.
They delighted in each other's ideas and conversation. It frustrated them that
they did not have more time to discuss... well, everything! lol
I have a fond memory where a high school age female volunteer I had befriended
was curious about the many intellectuals running about. I pointed her in their
direction..., and off she went! They were both perfect gentlemen and calibrated
their conversation so she could understand and take part.
The Art Bell show interview started with George Noory saying there are two very
different camps out there in the world. Those who want to encourage
technological progress, and those who want to limit and even sometimes just
plain stop it.
He gave a very impressive introduction for Nick. But then, Nick Bostrom is a
pretty impressive guy! George shared how Nick is a Yale professor and is even a
polymath(he used this word), also gifted in the "hard" sciences. Nick shared
that he has a love of philosophy, and likes to use it where it can be
practically applied. They have had a number of scientific heavyhitters on the
show over the last year or two, and I am so glad Nick Bostrom is the latest in
that trend.
George asked what transhumanism was. Nick replied it is a "cumbersome term".
lol His reply reminded me of a post he wrote awhile back. He felt ultimately
it is the philosophy that we can expand human capabilities through technological
intervention. Nick pointed out it has only been the last few years that the
"transhumanist technologies" have been seeping into the mind of the public via
the mass media.
But people have still not fully internalized what all this is going to really
mean. And they tend according to Nick to react to this information with a mix
of fear and excitement. He said we must take into consideration we may be the
first generation to be immortal! Nick told listeners he sees the possibility
becoming reality within thirty years. So we need to be taking care of ourselves
to make it. The thought occurred to me the Life Extension Foundation of Saul
Kent should start advertising now on the show!! lol
Nick explained the World Transhumanist Association was founded in 1998. His
reason was due to his belief there was a gap because there needed to be people
planning and shaping the future. The WTA champions the cause of getting tech
used for good causes. "It is up to us."
This made me wonder if Nick had temporarily forgotten of an organization called
The Extropian Institute!! lol! I suppose it helps to have more than just one
organization trying to advance things, and the WTA seems to be more of a
european and even global organization.
Nick said what is needed is lots of people with varied backgrounds who have
vision. George took this as meaning a physicist here, an economist over there,
etc. But Nick corrected him and stated he means people of every imaginable
profession and background. So George asked if that meant Coast to Coast
listeners could join, and Nick said certainly!
Later on Nick did say all sciences interrelate and are important for getting a
truly full view of the changes which are coming. I appreciated this,
considering how some extropians to an extent look down on certain fields of
knowledge.
The host had read over Nick's websites and even read a portion of it over the
air! Several times he urged listeners to visit them. : ) This is normally just
not done on the show. George really liked the phrase "to navigate the waters
ahead." He mentioned it several times.
George wanted to know what prompted Nick's interest in these subjects. Nick
explained it was the early realization A.I. could be vastly better at scientific
research than humans.
Why so relatively few women are involved in transhumanistic circles was asked.
Nick responded that part of it was due to gender roles, and he felt women were
by nature more concerned about how technology would affect human interaction and
communication. But, he said this was a GOOD thing. I'm not trying to get Dr.
Bostrom into trouble here! lol
Of course the grey goo scenario was discussed. The Art Bell hosts always love
hearing it described in loving detail! lol I liked how Nick went from saying
"nano-assemblers" to "mechanical bacteria" which the public might understand
better. He mentioned the many sectors of human endeavor which they would
transform.
And how obviously they could be used for good or evil, and why the WTA and other
organizations like it are so important. When George asked "do you think evil
people will misuse nanotech?" Nick stunned me by replying somewhat snidely(only
compared to the rest of his impeccable behavior) "what do you think??" LOL!
Nick went on to give an example of a future tyrannical regime which could last
forever due to nanotech because they could detect rebellion in the minds of any
citizens long before any harm could be done to the government. A very scary
thought which I think could keep George Bush and Dick Cheney up nights!
Nick shot down George's "classic Outer Limits episode idea" of one company at
present being by a longshot much farther along than all its competitors in the
development of AI or nanotech. He said only as the technology comes fairly
close to development in the eyes of everyone, then can one company or especially
gov't agency leap forward and take the prize earlier then expected.
AI and super-intelligence in general were major topics on the show. Nick
explained once computers become somewhat more bright than humans, it will only
be a relatively short time before they vastly outstrip us! But he cautioned it
is difficult to say how hard it would be to program them. Nick also brought up
the possibility of man/machine interfaces, and how there will probably be a
variety of human branches which have taken different paths.
Uploading and virtual worlds were discussed. Nick had to really try hard to
convince George Noory that as an upload the world could appear completely real!
Nick said he saw uploading here probably in thirty to fifty years. And he
explained it could be a method to bring back people cryonically frozen.
George asked Nick a loaded question(considering many in the audience), since he
wanted to know if Dr. Bostrom would allow the gov't to put a chip in his head!
I did not want to see Nick being seen as "weak" on an issue which scares many
religious people, so I cringed as I awaited the answer.
Nick very astutely countered that he would have to weigh the benefits with the
risk. And that if you were talking about this for security purposes, you would
do just as well by simply using a retina scan.
He went on to say the first chips in brains will be for the disabled, because
upgrading normal and healthy brains will be much more difficult. Nick forsees
extensive wearables being used by people over the next ten to fifteen years,
rather than having chips put in the brain. Nick did an excellent job dealing
with a potentially very damaging question.
When George brought up Professor Kevin Warwick, Nick was not to impressed. He
said the basic technology being used was on par with a videostore security
system! lol It was just surgically put under the skin.
George Noory really loved the idea of "Matrix-style" downloading a skill
instantly into one's brain. But Nick was skeptical of this, saying our brain's
holographic way of storing knowledge would make this difficult.
I laughed when it came out Nick had never seen an episode of one of my favorite
TV shows as a kid, The Six Million Dollar Man, starring actor Lee Majors. At
the next extro I will have to find some compatriots who will help me to encircle
Dr. Bostrom and make the "do-doo-dooo-doooo" noises which symbolize for me Lee
Majors using his bionic limbs to jump great distances or knock over trees. : )
Later George wanted to know if chips in the brain would be vulnerable to
computer viruses. Nick informed him that just as our body has an immune system,
so would these chips. And he went on to explain our minds have sort of an idea
immune system. But I never got to hear Nick say a favorite extropian word
"memes!" lol Actually, another guest a few months back went into great detail
on memetics. So they were prepared for you, Dr. Bostrom!
Nick felt the time was not right to be focusing on the cloning of humans, and
instead we should concentrate on therapeutic methods for alleviating the
suffering of those already here. He made a point of saying is was very sad that
there is opposition to such a vitally needed technology. And that thousands
may die simply because research in the U.S. was banned or even just slowed.
One subject which is a sore spot for some opponents of transhumanism, is
environmentalism. A caller in a very heated tone confronted Nick with the
declaration that the entire philosophy/movement was based on sacrificing nature
for the aggrandizement and immortality of man. Nick made it clear the one way
to truly protect the environment was by developing technologies like nano, which
would practically eliminate pollution compared to what we do presently.
Overpopulation was also brought up by callers. Nick reminded the audience that
our present six billion are only surviving because of our current level of
advanced technology to feed once never imagined numbers of people. China was
brought up by a caller, who mentioned the mess the people there are in, due to
the practice of keeping males and aborting females. Again, Nick pointed out,
advances in technology will aid us in effective birth control.
George asked if people would one day live to be as old as two-hundred years.
Nick said yes, but science would quickly go well beyond that age limit! When
George brought up social security being overburdened by this(he was kidding),
Nick said these would be people who were still physically vigorous and would be
very contributing members of society, bringing to bear all their worldly wisdom
and education to boost the economy.
As I knew someone would do, the question of death being a natural part of the
life cycle was brought up. Nick answered that we already greatly interfere with
nature's influence on our lives, and we must follow things to their logical
conclusion which is to "simply play to win."
On the topic of immortality another caller shared about a scenario where
immortals purposely have memories deleted so old experiences will seem like new.
Nick felt boredom was something people seemed to be calibrated for at
sometimes very different levels. Ultimately, he felt it would not be a big
problem.
When asked if he believed in the existence of God, Nick simply replied he was
agnostic. This actually surprised me, but in a sense it is the most logical
answer for a materialist who realizes they do not YET have all the answers.
Along these lines, Nick had several questions posed to him about whether a soul
exists. Nick would simply ask them exactly what a soul was. No one was sure.
A caller asked if nanotech would increase the gulf between the haves &
have-nots. Nick simply replied "I hope not." I personally wish he had stated
more in the program about how personal wealth will increase for everyone with
nanotech. Or maybe he does not fully agree with this view.
A question came up about the idea of humans having a spiritual side(the caller
seemed to believe transhumanists don't believe in "spiritual things, but it is
an argument of semantics among us), and the evidence being the cooperation we
show among each other. He felt without a spiritual side, we would be far more
selfish in trying to simply focus on our personal gene propagation. Nick
briefly showed there was more to it then this.
Nick Bostrom, the healthy believer in the Western/American way of getting things
done economically, came through clearly on the program. lol Nick made it clear
the best way to advance science and get things done is to have a capitalistic
meritocracy. Not too bad for a fellow from Sweden! : )
Colonizing space was another definite topic. He made the good point(made many
times before on the show) that it will be safest for humanity when we are spread
out in space. At this point "we have all our eggs in one basket." And as for
gaining resources, we need to get out into space where they are in abundance.
Nick was asked about the speed of light. He seemed skeptical about the light
barrier being subverted in some way, but said over the next decades and
centuries some brilliant minds may find a way around it. He did not mention
those minds most likely will belong to machines! lol
A caller wanted to know what our nanomachine probes would do when they came upon
intelligent alien races. Nick replied most likely they would be thousands or
millions of years more advanced than us. And so we would be at their mercy, not
the reverse!
Regarding time travel, Nick said it is still really an unknown, but maybe one
day it could be a reality. At that moment I wanted Anders on to give his(I'm
sure it would have been MUCH more lengthy) reply! lol
Nick believes there will be no major breakthroughs over the next ten to fifteen
years, but over the next twenty to fifty years we will see the appearance of
very capable AI and nanotech. He tried to explain to callers these advances
would not take centuries as some assume(such as many science fiction writers of
the past fifty years!).
Naysayers like Klass and Fukuyama were brought up. Nick said their principal
flaw was that they lacked the vision to see the big picture. He is such a
polite guy! ; )
George asked what the future would be like 200 hundred years from now. Nick did
not claim to really know, but said he was sure there would be vastly greater
intelligence available to humanity. Also, lifespans would be much greater.
In conclusion Nick stated it is not human nature to be passive, and not to try
changing things for the better. He feels this is the very essence of being
human.
He went on to say being able to imagine life at its very best is what drives
people forward. Nick mentioned the feelings a person experiences from a great
professional success, or with the ecstasy of romantic love. He said these can
show us the way to wanting even more in our lives, such as a world without
disease, with improved memory power, and much longer lifespans. And so it is
with the advancement of science that we can truly enrich our lives to the next
level.
George Noory and Nick got along very well. Noory has a real enthusiasm for the
topics which were discussed. I got a kick out of George seeming to always first
jump in to answer caller questions before Nick got his chance! lol
It was an excellent interview. Nick was guardedly optimistic, not "over the
top" by any means. lol! I only wish he had perhaps shown a little more energy
and enthusiasm as he spoke. And maybe said more on some of his responses. But
that is only my opinion, and I realize english is not his native language(though
he speaks it very well!). He was certainly inside a sort of pressure cooker
with many millions of opinionated listeners. Ultimately, he came across as very
bright, educated, serious, humane, and was a real gentleman to the callers.
Who will be next? lol I would definitely like to see Max and/or Natasha More,
Robert Bradbury, Anders Sandberg, Dr. Jerry Lemler(head of Alcor), Robert
Ettinger or Damien Broderick on the program.
The Art Bell show audience seems very hungry for this sort of discussion. I
guess they are beginning to catch on that science and technology, and those who
are proponents of it, can be very exciting!
best wishes,
John
The following is taken from the Art Bell website:
Guest: Dr. Nick Bostrom
Dr. Bostrom is one of the leading lights of the transhumanist movement, which
argues for the responsible use of technology to enhance human capacities. He is
currently a philosopher at Yale University, but being something of a polymath he
also has a deep background in physics, computational neuroscience, and
mathematical logic. During various phases of his 29-year existence, he's also a
painter, poet, and a stand-up comedian. He founded the World Transhumanist
Association in 1998 in an effort to promote understanding of anticipated future
technologies and their impact on humanity.
Book: Anthropic Bias: Observation Selections Effects in Science and Philosophy
Website: www.nickbostrom.com
Website: www.transhumanism.org
(end)
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