X-Message-Number: 19881
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 09:37:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Driven FromThePack <>
Subject: re: plastination etc from Dalibor
Excellent cryonet post from Dalibor (quoted in its
entirety below). I think that some of the
cryoscientists such as Wowk have said that fixation
with formaldehyd is not a viable way of preserving
memory, but I don't recall anyone addressing silicone
plastination as you discuss in your post below.
As for the high temps (-150 C) freezing, I think I
recall Wowk saying that in order for vitrification to
work properly, temps must be lower than -196 C anyway.
So therefore, this method of using a freezer may be
worthwhile.
There are negatives associated with your ideas, I am
sure (although I am not qualified to address them),
but, dude, I like way you think. Great post!
>>>>
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Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 07:36:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: "D. den Otter" <>
Subject: Re: Cheaper Attempted Identity Conservation
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Mike Perry <> wrote:
>From: Asteromed e.V. <>
>My turn, I must play, so I would use the "standard"
popular gun with all
>the chambers filled with bullets. This is because I
can not afford the
>expensive gun sold by Cryonics providers. What should
I say before the
>shot? Should I say: "Thank you Alcor and ACS for my
death, because it is
>fine that cheap methods like chemical preservation
and storage of personal
>data for activities by the use of artificial
intelligence are removed from
>the market!"Make a suggestion.
>>You do have a point. I wish very much that this
situation were remedied.<<
Same here. Fortunately, it *can* be remedied if we're
prepared to put some money & effort into it.
Want some concrete proposals? Well, how about:
Option #1) PLASTINATION (see
http://www.transtopia.org/plastination.html ). Though
their services aren't available to private
individuals, it appears that at least some of the
plastination outfits (like VisDocta in Italy, see
http://www.visdocta.com ) would be willing to work
with cryonics organizations which are, after all,
"officially qualified" to handle human remains,
perform research etc. CI, ACS, or Alcor could act as a
"middle man", officially placing the "order" and
providing the "specimen" to bypass BS regulations. A
small fee, to be paid in advance, could be charged for
this service, which in its most basic form would be
limited to the signing of some paperwork. The
person(s) requesting the services could make all the
actual arrangements, including brain extraction and
transportation by funeral director(s) etc.
A "neuroplastination", using the standard S-10
silicone procedure, would probably cost somewhere
between $2,000 and $5,000 (it costs ~$4,000 at
VisDocta, but this is a high-tech commercial outfit so
the pricing might be at the high end of the spectrum).
To that would have to be added transportation &
storage costs (the latter only if the specimen can't
be stored privately), which could vary between, say,
$1,000 and 10,000, if done professionally (a
"do-it-yourself" approach would cost practically
nothing, but might cause some legal difficulties). For
extra protection the brain(s) could be put into a
normal freezer, which adds little to the total costs.
Well, all kinds of setups are possible with this
option, but at its core lies a very affordable means
of neuropreservation: ~$2,000 - 5,000. The rest are
variables, which in part depend on one's geographical
location and the "goodwill" of cryonics organizations
-- by being prepared to act as middle men and charging
only minimal fees for their involvement and the
storage (if applicable) of plastinated specimens, they
could help to potentially save the lives of at least
*some* of those who can't afford regular cryonics
services.
Option #2) CRYOGENIC FREEZERS (see for. ex.
http://www.harrisphq.com/catalog/harris/cryo1.htm ).
Some of these can cool down to -150*C, which should
significantly slow down decay. No need for LN2, just
electricity which -presumably- is both cheaper &
safer. Dry ice or a normal freezer could be kept
around for emergencies, LN2 if the freezer is stored
in a cryonics facility (ideal). Straight freeze /
minimal cryoprotection, neuro only.
Now, the basic idea is that 10-20 people, according to
the freezer's capacity, would collectively buy the
freezer, which costs something like $12,000 +
transportation costs. The money -say, $1,000 - 3,000
p.p., would obviously have to be paid in advance. The
freezer would then be placed somewhere where it is
legal to store human remains (heads or brains). In the
US this could be a cryonics facility, which would then
have to be paid the annual electricity costs (not too
much) and rent / a maintenance fee. Alternatively, a
legal entity (organization) could be set up for the
sole purpose of maintaining the freezer. This would
presumably be easier in the US than in Europe & other
parts of the world.
Needless to say, transportation costs etc. would have
to be added to the above, but due to the low $1,000 -
$3,000 baseline the whole thing would remain fairly
affordable, well below even the cheapest normal
suspension.
The costs could be further reduced by making the
collective larger than the freezer's capacity; for ex.
30 people while there is only room for 15 or so
brains. If most members aren't too old and/or sick,
this is a "statistically sound" decision. There could
be substantial discounts for the young & healthy, who
could use it as a stepping stone towards signing up
for cryonics -- a low-budget temporary safety net.
Hell, even 100 people could participate in such a
program, and simply buy a second freezer when the 1st
one is full (which isn't likely to happen very soon,
judging from cryo orgs' statistics). In the latter
case the contribution per person would be something
like $150; an almost ridiculously low price for a shot
at immortality. Most other costs could be covered with
standard "burial insurance", a small loan, or a
"micro" life insurance policy (say, $10,000), again
all very affordable. Ah, the magic of numbers...
Option #3): PLASTINATION - CRYOFREEZER COMBO. The poor
man's vitrification equivalent. "Superb" protection,
but twice (well, not quite) as expensive.
Needless to say, data storage (video, audio, writings,
photos, medical records etc.) could be combined with
any & all of the above options.
There are some more ideas, also regarding pet
preservation, at
http://www.transtopia.org/plastination.html
+++++++++++++++++++++
BOTTOM LINE: cheap preservation *is* possible, but
only if those who want it are willing & able to put
some money and/or effort into it. Here's your chance,
take it -- or stop whining and die like the lazy miser
you are.
+++++++++++++++++++++
Of course, assistance from existing cryonics
organizations would help considerably, and might even
be essential in some cases. Also, if the "powers that
be" in the cryonics community --the kind of people who
apparently are willing & able to put millions into
visionary but uncertain high-tech projects-- would put
just a couple of thousand dollars into low-tech, low
budget preservation, that might make a huge
difference. A donation that normally wouldn't buy even
half a suspension could help to save up to a dozen (or
more) lives! If you want to do something for the
community's destitute and unfortunate, well, here's
your chance. :-) Used equipment, money,
expertise...all are welcome.
Note: the above proposals aren't meant to compete with
existing cryonics services, but rather to *supplement*
them. It's an effort by & for the cryonics community,
and doesn't even have to be mentioned at any of the
cryo org's websites if they think it's "bad PR". In
fact, *technically speaking*, the cryo org(s) wouldn't
be offering this service, merely renting space (etc.)
to a separate entity (an immortalist mutual aid group,
something like the Venturists or the Metamorphosis
Society).
Also, any arguments against [the effectiveness of]
plastination and straight freezing are utterly
**irrelevant** in this context, for the simple reason
that it's not about low-tech vs high-tech, but
("uncertain, potentially ineffective") low-tech vs
TOTAL, CERTAIN ANNIHILATION. Even a small chance is
better than no chance at all, even bad preservation is
preferable to cremation or burial...etc. Basic logic.
Low-tech is meant for those who don't have a choice
because they can't afford high-tech. To suggest -as
some people apparently do- that these folks must
sacrifice themselves (Can't afford state of the art
suspension services? Sorry, go fuck yourself & die)
because low-tech *might* be a "PR liability" to
cryonics as a whole is rather deplorable, IMHO. Let's
learn something from the churches and start "taking
care of our own" in an organized, systematic manner,
for a strong cryonics community is the key to personal
survival. It's not (just) altruism; it's enlightened
self-interest.
-Dalibor (aka A-1592)
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>>>>
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