X-Message-Number: 20099
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 14:53:28 -0700
From: James Swayze <>
Subject: Something touching from someone that needs to learn about cryonics
References: <>

> Message #20087
> Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 12:00:09 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Dani Kollin <>
> Subject: Mr. Dee's Challenge Round 4
> Mr. Dee I will repeat what I said before.  A
> monotheistic world is no guarantee of a world I want
> to live in. But you have said nothing, found anything,
> or for that matter proved anything to make me think a
> world based solely on secular ideals would be better.
> Au contraire there is much to make me think it would
> be worse historically speaking that is.
> Eytan Kollin

> Message #20092
> Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 20:27:40 -0500
> Subject: Cryonet #20064
> From: Joesph A Zarka <>
>   The American Atheists are holding their 2003 Convention in Chicago IL
> which is only 60 miles from where I live. I plan on asking them if they
> would be interested in me speaking at the convention about cryonics.
>    As far as atheists being death-accepters, I like to look at it as
> accepting the fact that there is no God therefore no afterlife after
> death. Atheists love life just like anyone else and do not welcome death
> anytime soon. In my opinion atheists would be more open to cryonics and
> and radical life extension than religious people.

After reading what Kramer said here below I thought it related to the two posts 
above one from Dani's brother Eytan and one from Joseph Zarka.

I found this at the site Mark Plus shared that has quotes from celbrity 
Kramer, Producer / Recording Artist

Named Rolling Stone's Producer of the Year in 1994, Kramer founded Shimmy-Disc, 
a notorious record company that discovered and released music by GWAR, WEEN, 
KING MISSILE, BONGWATER (his band), HALF JAPANESE and others.  He has also 
produced the first recordings by WHITE ZOMBIE, ROYAL TRUX, JON SPENSER, GWAR, 
DANIEL JOHNSTON, GALAXIE 500, LOW, and many others.

As a musician, he founded BONGWATER and played bass for bands as varied as THE 

1984 FUGS reunion tour), GG ALLIN, JOHN ZORN, WEEN, and too many others to 

At the Editor's insistence, Kramer offers some background on his godlessness...

When I was 12 years old, I was told by my mother, as my father sat by, that 
although we never went to temple, I would have to be bar-mitzvah'd.

She told me that not a single member of her family would ever speak to her again
unless her only son was bar-matvah'd.  My father grunted.  It wasn't until 
years later that I discovered the true depth of his contempt for not only 
judaism and religion in general, but in particular his contempt for everyone in 
his family "in utter thrall to ancient superstition", as he later put it.

My first real encounter with my father's lack of belief came not long after I 
began Hebrew lessons in preparation for my bar-mitvah.

Having never had ANY kind of religious training before, I was VERY skeptical at 
first as to how I would react to my first encounters with zealotry, but soon 
found that the "Hebrew" I was to learn would never be anything more than 
phonetic.  As with most so-called "reform" Judaism, boys are taught to speak or 
sing in Hebrew but are rarely taught the meaning of the words they were singing.
No one EVER offered ANY form of translation.  I did well with the phonetics 
right from the start, and one Saturday afternoon, I

came home with a look of accomplishment on my face, proud to show my father what
I had "learnt".  I sang what I had learned that day - a short section of the 
Torah.  I sang it well.

"That sounds lovely, son", he said sarcastically.

"What do you mean?"...I knew his tone and what it meant.  After all, he was my 
father and I was his son.

"Well, son, let me ask you something.  Do you know the meaning of any of those 
words you just sang?"

"NO, Dad.  They didn't even mention it.  They just want me to sing it correctly 
and not mispronounce any of the words."

"Well then, you should be very proud of yourself.  They've turned you into an 
excellent parrot."

I stood there stunned as he turned his back on me and left the room 
muttering..."You should be VERY proud.  My son.  The parrot."

If there was one cell in my body that COULD have been jewish, it was wiped out 
like syphillis that very day, courtesy of the words of a father who loved me 
enough to say what he knew I needed to hear.

The only bad thing about my life today is that my ex-wife and daughter live in 
an apartment directly below devout Christians, sorely testing my humanism.  I 
want them outta there.  The atheist within me is chipping away at even my most 
dire character traits - that of being a humanist.  I fear that soon my sense of 
humanism itself will be entirely devoured, and that I will become like some of 
my friends who won't even TALK to a Christian.  And if that is where my lack of 
belief leads me, I will obediently follow it
off a cliff, if need be.

My daughter, Tess, now nearly 8, came home from school about a week before xmas 
vacation with a look of great joy on her face..."Dad!  Guess what?

I have something really great to tell you!  I just found out the another girl in
my class doesn't believe in god, either!  Isn't that GREAT?  Now there are TWO 
of us!"

In 1984 my father died.  Two weeks before the end, he wrote a poem.  He'd never 
written one before.  I read it at his bedside in the hospital.  It spoke of a 
river through which all life flowed before emptying into the sea and becoming 
one with the universe.

Interpreted benignly, this could be seen as bioligical prose.  Interpreted more 
acutely, it could easily seem the pains of a mind forced to face his own 
mortality, and even question it.

"Dad, this is beautiful."

"Is it?  It's got some bullshit in it, son."

"So does most poetry, Dad."

"Son?  Will I ever see you again, after I'm dead?  Do you think I'll be watching
you, at least, as you have kids, as you raise them, as you get old?  What do 
you really think, son?"

"I think what YOU really think, Dad."

"I don't know what I think.  I'm going to die.  I'm not sure anymore.  Are you 

"I'm sure, Dad.  You're dying, but you will live on in my memory and in my life 
and in my children, and in Mom.  We won't meet again, but we are together 

"Good son.  That's my boy.  Now go into my wallet in my coat pocket hanging in 
the closet, and take out the $10 bill that's there.  I want you to go and buy 
your mother flowers for me.  I can't recall the last time I bought her flowers.
Do that for me, son."

My atheism is rocklike.  Nothing touches it.

Life is random.  One wrong turn, one more or one less microbe, and we humans 
might never have appeared at all.

There is no creator.

There is only the love of a father and a daughter, the lifelong quest to escape 
the strangling inner loneliness we all suffer, and the march of nature.

KRAMER (1-2-2000, NYC)
Kramer's production company website is http://www.shimmydisc.com.

Too bad Kramer's father wasn't a cryonicist. What a shameful loss.

Cryonics Institute of Michigan Member!
The Immortalist Society Member!
The Society for Venturism Member!

MY WEBSITE: http://www.geocities.com/~davidpascal/swayze/ While there follow the
links to photos of me and some of my artwork and a radio interview on Dr.  J's 
ChangeSurfer Radio program with me and the father of cryonics Prof.  Robert 
Ettinger, author of "The Prospect of Immortality".

A RELIGION I actually recommend: 
A FAVORITE quote: Last lines of the first Star Trek the Next Generation movie.

Capt.  Picard: "What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived, 
after all Number One, we're only mortal."
Will Ryker: "Speak for yourself captain, I intend to live forever!"

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