X-Message-Number: 20414
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 22:02:34 -0800
From: "John Grigg" <>
Subject: James gets on his soapbox!  :   )

James Swayze wrote:
Personally, I feel that the best way to get spouses to join us is 
to remind the spouse that is not in favor of cryonics that they 

are supposed to love their spouse that is involved. They should sign up, if 
funding allows it, merely to assuage the ill feelings that their 
not doing so creates in their loved one. These feelings will run 
the gamut of horrifying emotions which the non cryonics believing spouse should
from love alone wish to ease the burden from their loved one.

One of these is guilt for not being able to persuade. Another is 
the terrible anguish over the knowledge that this, to the cryonics 
believer--most often, is seen as the ONLY way to eternal or extremely extended

Today, at least, not choosing cryonics is choosing absolute 
death, absolute oblivion.

At least that is what you think.  There is only one way currently to be 
ABSOLUTELY sure and I really don't think you want to go that route! lol  

you continue:
We all must unfortunately eventually harden 
ourselves to the awful aspect that so many in the world will be missing this
opportunity but so much worse so is to harden oneself to the egregious 

fact that so many of our loved ones will also simply miss out. There is for now 
ONLY one chance.

If only our loved one's could understand and feel for only a moment 
this terrible crushing angst, they would immediately understand 
and right then and there agree to sign up. Sometimes I feel it so badly I just
want to grab and shake them silly...  shake the doubt, the fear, 
the blinding dogma, straight out of them!! Sometimes it's all I 
can do to keep the tears back. Why can't they just accept reason?

Wow.  I wonder how people like Rudi Hoffman, who have cryonics friendly(but 
unsigned) wives would react to your words.  I found the  above paragraph 
extremely powerful to say the least.

you continue:
It amounts to grief, terrible grief felt beforehand and bound to 
linger interminably after. If they only knew what their decision--not 
to choose life--is condemning us to--to an eternity of, they would surely,
out of love alone, acquiesce. Why shouldn't they? What have they 
to lose? Do they truly love us? Is our love, exhibited by this terrible 
grief we feel for their loss, somehow greater than their own? Are they
incapable of empathizing?

In most cases these loved one's simply don't believe cryonics will 
work. SO WHAT! So, if it doesn't, what have they to lose, why should 
they care if they don't believe in it in the first place? Sign up anyway, if

only to indulge us. Do it because you love us! [Bumper Sticker alert: 
Cryonics--Because you care]

I think playing the love/romance card(in a truly sincere way) would be about the
most effective way to get one's wife to finally decide to sign up, despite 
their own personal qualms about it.  Generally this is a situation where the 
husband is a cryonicist and the wife is not, so male/female dynamics need to be 
taken into account.  I do think that men and women are more like each other than

you continue:
In other cases it is religious conviction that holds our loved ones 
back. They feel doing this is slighting their faith somehow... somehow 
telling their higher being that they really don't believe all that much
because they are going to have a back up plan. HOGWASH! If they 
are merely indulging us to assuage our angst as an act of love, 

what cruel god would judge them harshly? None worth worshiping that's for 

Your take on things is a smart way to get around religious objections.  Is God 
cruel, or do we simply have an imperfect view of things?  I often wonder about 

you continue:
Another and perhaps the most difficult case, is that they fear the 
future will be apocalyptic or dystopic. This is simply irrational. 
It's plain to see life today is markedly much better, despite the modern
dangers, than it ever has been in all of history. Unfortunately 
the apocalyptic meme is all around us, pervasive and strong... thoroughly 
ingrained. From the bible to sci-fi to the evening news it oozes from
every pore. The only shield from its effects is education... especially 
an understanding of statistics.

I think many average people feel somewhat overwhelmed by the pace of progress 
and modern life in general, so the idea of waking up after fifty to one-hundred 
years have passed is seen as mind-boggling.  And that is even if they are 
brought back into a mainly friendly and healthy society!  

Actually, I think the media is getting better at putting a positive spin on 
technology and social trends.  Newsweek is for me just one example of this.  
They occasionally have excellent cover stories which are uplifting in nature.  
Back in the 1970's the media was much more negative in my view than now.

I believe people/media WANT to be optimistic about life and the future, but they
tend to feel it would be naive and unsophisticated to be open being that way.
you continue:
Regarding the bible, it must be pointed out and pounded in that 
there really IS NO prophecy in it at all. That which has been purported 
as prophecy is a sham. The two main books Daniel and Revelation are both the
worst shams. Daniel was written from historical perspective in such 
a manner as to appear to be and was claimed to be pre-empting the 
events allegedly foretold. This was an ancient and common practice. It's flat
out lie. As to revelation, it was only meant for the times of the 
Romans and Nero is the so called Beast. After all he was the first 
to begin killing Christians in the Roman Coliseum for amusement... a rather

beastly thing to do. Transliteration his full name reveals the notorious 666 
mark of the beast.

I will have to investigate your purported claims.  Christian scholars often see 
a dual nature in the prophetic texts you mentioned.  

If you want to really guarantee your efforts at convincing someone to sign up 
will fail, all you need to do is aggressively attack their religious beliefs!  
This tends to be brought up on the regularly appearing threads on religious 

you continue:
Regarding sci-fi, again only education about the good that has been 
predicted and a healthy study of the real trends in history, then 
finally a realization that's it's merely sensationalism for entertainment

sake, can do anything to neutralize sci-fi's deleterious apocalyptic meme 

Please don't lump all science fiction together!  There are the Hollywood popcorn
movies and the equivalent novels, and than there is the science fiction worthy 
of the great legacy the genre has given us.  And to be frank science fiction can
often serve as a necessary warning of what might happen if humanity turns down 
certain forks in the road.

you continue:
Regarding the news, here again one must understand that now more 
than anytime in the past we have the ability to actually see and 
hear events from all over the world all the time, instantly. Sure it looks and
sounds bad but years ago you'd never have ever heard about which 
tribe in Africa was genocidaly murdering another... and other like 

news. We are inundated daily and we tend to focus on the bad. This is a survival
technique. We naturally focus on what dangers to avoid and so they 
weight our perceptions more heavily. We must consciously realize 
every day that statistically, "per capita", we are way way better off than ever
before. I for one would not even be alive if I had been born even 
two generations before my own... few in the past ever survived a broken neck.

We are all EXTREMELY fortunate to have been born into this present era of time.
We must have all been valiant spirits in the premortal life(Mormon doctrine)! 
: )  Or did we "win the cosmic lottery" by getting to be big clumps of atoms 
known as human beings?   

you continue:
Apocalyptic expectations for the future can be countered, but it 
takes time and concerted and constant effort.

This is very true.  On the extropian list for instance I have sensed a certain 
amount of gloom, not only about whether technologies will be allowed to progress
largely unhindered, but also as to the nature of possibly very restrictive 
future governments(and the masses who may gladly endorse them).   I realize 
sometimes a realistic understanding of the dangers around us must first be had 
before proper action can be undertaken.  ExI certainly tries to get the word out
despite a very small operating budget and Alcor is the same way.

you continue:

We may all hope that in time as cryonics gains in popularity or shows more 
promise via the successful preservation and return of organs, that more of our 
loved ones will catch on and join us. The problem is that will be too late for 
some. We are all aging and varied ages from young to old. Age will catch up with
some and illness or injury may do the same to others. Where funds are not an 
issue we must encourage our loved ones to join us as if it were the supreme act 
of love and devotion. After all, how many people adopt their spouses religion so
as to be not "unevenly yoked"? Is this any different?

There certainly will be casualties as time goes on.  James, I will say you have 
done your part in trying to improve things by writing this "tract" to inspire 
people.  It should be made into a little flyer or pamphlet to be given out to 
new cryonicists!  This would help deal with the "unevenly yoked" condition so 
many cryonicists face.  

David Pizer could tell some touching stories of what he did to encourage his 
wife Trudy to accept cryonics.  In fact he wrote an article about it for a 
magazine years ago! : )

A few days ago David and I carried numerous boxes of cryonics books and 
magazines into our new little library here at Creekside/Ventureville.  He 
lovingly opened them up and told me cool stories about different people and 
events who made a difference for the movement.  I really enjoyed myself that 

This is going to be a very special place in time and dear to many hearts.  I 
mean that.    

Cryonics Institute of Michigan Member!
The Immortalist Society Member!
The Society for Venturism Member!

I see you have become quite the joiner! : )

very best wishes,


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