X-Message-Number: 21069
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2003 07:58:50 EST
Subject: Re: identical particles

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There have been some talks on cryonet about identical particles. Here, I 
would present some strange facts about that domain:

If all quantum numbers of a particle are equal to those of another, they are 
identical. Think for example about a composite object such a proton, made 
from quarks bound by gluons from the SU(3) color force field. These is a set 
of quantum quantities linked to the proton as a whole and so if they are 
identical for two protons, these particle are identical. But that tell 
nothing about the state of quantum numbers owned by quarks. So, two protons 
could be equal at proton level and different at quark level... Assume they 
are equal to both, proton and quarks quantum numbers. Is there a substructure 
where they could be different?

High energy experiments prove that quarks are point-like at a very high 
level. Some indirect arguments seem to exclude any structure down to near the 
Planck scale at 10^-33 cm. So all is said: We can have true identical 

There is yet a problem: In cosmic ray experiments, sometime very high energy 
particles produce a tight bunch of hadrons (proton like particles) with 
nearly nothing else. This is the so called Centauro process. When physicists 
see a particle jet, they assume that a heavy particle X disintegrate into 
lighter jet particles Y and Z. There is no reason to have: rest mass of Y + 
rest mass of Z = rest mass of X. The Y + Z masses sum is smaller than X, so 
when X disintegrate, a part of its mass goes into kinetic energy. Y and Z are 
created at high speed and by momentum conservation, must go in opposite 
directions. That side speed make the jet a broad one.

In a Centauto, there is nearly no kinetic energy in the decay products, so 
the rest mass of the decay, Y, Z, ... add up to the original mass of X. This 
is something as a miracle. When the same thing goes on and on for different 
energies and so different X masses, this is no more a miracle, this is a 

Everything work as if X was a "vibrating" excited state of a proton-like 
particle with a wave where each harmonic frequency would contain a proton. 
This would be possible if each quark was as the whole proton, a composite 
SU(3) object. There is a theory about it, it is called Technicolor. The 
problem is that accelerator experiments rule out such a model: quarks are 
point-like. So what is going on?

One possibility is that quarks are point objects in quantum space and 
Technicolor composite in another space such the Bohm's quantum world. At some 
high energy, seen by cosmic rays but not by accelerators, a new world would 
open with Bohm's mechanics. There could be even more such spaces, 
techniquarks, the building block of quarks in Technicolor could be point-like 
in Bohm's space and composite in the next space...

So when two particles are identical? There would be identical objects in a 
given number of spaces, but it would be always possible to add more spaces so 
that they would be different in them.

Yvan Bozzonetti.


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