X-Message-Number: 21395
From: Transoniq <>
Subject: Reduce Now Sinners!
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 15:17:24 -0800 (PST)

Mike Perry writes...

> Once again, though, it seems the world itself is just an ongoing 
> computation using "symbols" of a sort; David Deutsch makes this point in 
> *The Fabric of Reality*.
> 
> Another thought is that the term "symbol" itself may be a stumbling block 
> for the points I've been trying to make, because we naturally think a 
> symbol is something that has to "stand for" something else, that is to say, 
> we have to assign a meaning. But really that's not so. Instead of "symbols" 
> I could have used "letters"--understood to be chosen from a finite 
> alphabet--or just "bits"--which are the most convenient since there are two 
> letters in the alphabet and two only. Individually, a bit (0 or 1, say) can 
> be called a "symbol" but it really doesn't have to mean anything, except 
> that it is different from its opposite (0 and 1 are different that is). 
> Here it's not the individual bits that have meaning, but the *patterns* 
> they are formed into, and these patterns are not just arbitrary. We 

Some of us could use a good shot of reductionism.

I guess I have a single question for any of those who think
that abstractions (souls, minds, information, stories, software,
numbers, letters, etc) actually exist: By what possible
mechanism do *any* of these have *any* effect on anything in
the universe? Just one case - any one. 'Cause if they don't
then they might as well be on the wrong side of a perfectly
tight event horizon.

Now I understand how a brain can affect the world. There're
some tricky parts (but no magic!) linking changes in neurons
to say, the lifting of a hand. But how does this "mind" thing
get the ball rolling? Telekinesis? God's will? By what
mechanism? Use any of the four forces, hell, use a fifth
force if you've got a half-assed reasonable explanation.

Software? I can see where closing certain switches can lead
to handy phosphors lighting up on my CRT. I can see where
a disk with magnetic domains can record these sequences - but
where's the "software"? I can remember when "programming"
didn't involve so many higher levels of abstraction - we're
talkin' "patch cords," baby! Now, lines of code are certainly
a handy mental construct - but we're still closing switches.
I'd have a Really Hard Time even asking this question without
abstractions - BUT, there's a 100%-unbroken, 100%-mundane, 
physical link between my neurons and yours. Kinda neat, huh?

Information? I think if you destroy all physical copies of
it - including the synaptic ones - you'll find that what
you have left is zip. To paraphase Mark Twain, "Ideas are
good, ideas are impressive, but it's paper and ink that
does the work." And it's all physical - such is the nature
of work.

Now it may be more sophisticated to say, "All that matters
is the information - the pattern" than say, some loon preaching
on a corner saying, "I'm going to live forever by replacing
my brain with sand arranged so that some of it kinda looks
like something similar to what might be happening. Come join
me..." but the loon has the distinct advantage of talking about
more things that actually exist. In this case, removing a few
levels of abstraction allows us to better see some of the
hurdles involved. I think a little prudence might be wise
before hanging one's existence on an abstraction.

I guess I also have a single word for those who do - whether
it's counting on their souls to enter heaven or teleporting
their patterns across space:

"Bye."

Take care,
Eric

------------------------------------------------------------
"There's no one in the world quite like you." - Mr. Rogers

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