X-Message-Number: 22005 From: Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 15:48:18 EDT Subject: Re: CryoNet #21983 - #22000 I can't help noticing that cryonet has lately been consumed by endless arguments of marginal relevance to the core interests and purposes of the list. Most of us presumably all have this one core interest in common, although I suppose that some subscribers are just curious about what we are up to and a few, perhaps, are actively hostile to our general aims. Be that as it may, we have to face the fact that our core membership is seriously divided on many issues. Core divisions are symbolized by the ALCOR-CI split which sometimes heats up but more often is remarkably cordial, considering the stakes involved in memberships, technical procedures, proprietary interests, and just plain financial viability. But then there are the ideologies which encroach upon us from the larger culture. Some subscribers view some such issues as of over-riding importance to themselves and also to their particular beliefs or ideas about cryonics. This led, for example, to a very acrimonious, sometimes hurtful, and ultimately unresolvable discussion of libertarianism which seemed to peter out a week or so. I had thought to make a contribution to that discussion, suggesting how it might be that these opposing camps might both be concerned about different aspects of our precarious cryonics future but the debate was so nasty that I decided I should not get involved. Then we started in on a discussion of natural gas supplies which I believe related to a near-term concern for the supply of our much needed liquid nitrogen. This quickly escalated into a debate on petroleum reserves, predictions of depletion, and various speculations on the future, everyone claiming ultimate truth based on one authority or another, one example or another, with an avidity, in each claim and counter-claim to have the last word. I'm sure such a debate is enlightening for some, but I am reaching the conclusion that it is destructive of our collective goals as cryonauts. Personally, I don't see how one can be a cryonaut and a firm believer in one of the established religions (save perhaps Bhuddism or maybe Quakerism or Unitarianism) but it is not my business to judge others on this matter, so I welcome Catholics, Baptists, Mormons, and Muslims to the fold. Thanks for coming. We need your support. Likewise I don't see how a confirmed libertarian who believes that taxes are theft can support a system which so much depends on collective action over a very long period of time and the protections provided by a benign but non-intrusive government during that time. Likewise, I don't see how a militantly redistributive collective welfare state would be willing to support our cause, either. Never mind all that,thanks to both sides for remaining with us. Now we are embroiled in another discussion about the limits of resources and the limits of growth. I happen to have a horse in this race. I have been writing on this general subject for nearly forty years which probably makes me an authority in some areas and am in the middle of writing a book on "progress." My take happens to be very optimistic. I don't see doom ahead at all. In my life time of 68 years, the human race has endured a lot of hellish stuff, but, on balance, we are now way ahead of where we were in 1935. Furthermore I see the trends as positive, not negative. I know there are a lot of people out there, many of them "scientists" of one stripe or another, who think the opposite of what I do (although I didn't realize that there was anyone around who still thinks Malthus was right). I am somewhat surprised that a number of subscribers to this list are also in the doomsday camp, because I don't see how they can square those views with any kind of belief in a cryonic future. Just the same, as with the other issues, religion and libertarianism, hey, welcome to the club, my friends. We need everyone we can get and there is no litmus test for membership. Just one request. Please don't unburden yourself too long with you personal views on the cryonet unless you can keep the clear link to our collective interests in focus, and with that request I am going to swear off further rebuttals with the hope that those with contrary views, however well documented, might do likewise. I hope to be frozed at death. I hope there will be a system to support me in the frozen state until revival as a normal human with memory becomes possible. I hope the same for all of you and I suspect we will be as diverse a lot coming back as we were going in. Ron Havelock PS Let me know when you are in the Washington DC area, even if you disagree. I love a good intellectual discussion on almost any topic. Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=22005