X-Message-Number: 22005
From: 
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 15:48:18 EDT
Subject: Re: CryoNet #21983 - #22000

I can't help noticing that cryonet has lately been consumed by endless 

arguments of marginal relevance to the core interests and purposes of the list.
Most of us presumably all have this one core interest in common,  although I 

suppose that  some subscribers are just curious about what we are up to and a 
few, 
perhaps, are actively hostile to our general aims.  Be that as it may, we 
have to face the fact that our core membership is seriously divided on many 

issues.  Core divisions are symbolized by the ALCOR-CI split which sometimes 
heats 
up but more often is remarkably cordial, considering the stakes involved in 
memberships, technical procedures, proprietary interests, and just plain 
financial viability.  
But then there are the ideologies which encroach upon us from the larger 

culture. Some subscribers  view some such issues as of over-riding importance to
themselves and also to their particular beliefs or ideas about cryonics.  This 
led, for example, to a very acrimonious, sometimes hurtful, and ultimately 

unresolvable discussion of libertarianism which seemed to peter out a week or 
so. 
 I had thought to make a contribution to that discussion, suggesting how it 
might be that these opposing camps might both be concerned about different 
aspects of our precarious cryonics future but the debate was so nasty that I 
decided I should not get involved.  
 Then we started in on a discussion of natural gas supplies which I believe 
related to a near-term concern for the supply of our much needed liquid 

nitrogen.  This quickly escalated into a debate on petroleum reserves, 
predictions of 
depletion, and various speculations on the future, everyone claiming ultimate 
truth based on one authority or another, one example or another, with an 

avidity, in each claim and counter-claim to have the last word.  I'm sure such a
debate is enlightening for some, but I am reaching the conclusion that it is 
destructive of our collective goals as cryonauts.  Personally, I don't see how 
one can be a cryonaut and a firm believer in one of the established religions 
(save perhaps Bhuddism or maybe Quakerism or Unitarianism) but it is not my 
business to judge others on this matter, so I welcome Catholics, Baptists, 
Mormons, and Muslims to the fold.  Thanks for coming. We need your support.  

Likewise I don't see how a confirmed libertarian who believes that taxes are 
theft 

can support a system which so much depends on collective action over a very long
period of time and the protections provided by a benign but non-intrusive 
government during that time.  Likewise, I don't see how a militantly 

redistributive collective welfare state would be willing to support our cause, 
either. 
Never mind all that,thanks to both sides for remaining with us.
Now we are embroiled in another discussion about the limits of resources and 
the limits of growth.  I happen to have a horse in this race.   I have been 

writing on this general  subject for nearly forty years which probably makes me
an authority in some areas and am in the middle of writing a book on 

"progress." My take happens to be very optimistic. I don't see doom ahead at 
all.  In 
my life time of 68 years, the human race has endured a lot of hellish stuff, 
but, on balance, we are now way ahead of where we were in 1935. Furthermore I 

see the trends as positive, not negative.  I know there are a lot of people out
there, many of them "scientists" of one stripe or another, who think the 

opposite of what I do (although I didn't realize that there was anyone around 
who 
still thinks Malthus was right).  I  am somewhat surprised that a number of 

subscribers to this list are also in the doomsday camp, because I don't see how
they can square those views with any kind of belief in a cryonic future.  Just 
the same, as with the other issues, religion and libertarianism, hey, welcome 
to the club, my friends.  We need everyone we can get and there is no litmus 
test for membership.  Just one request.  Please don't unburden yourself too 

long with you personal views on the cryonet unless you can keep the clear link 
to 
our collective interests in focus, and with that request I am going to swear 
off further rebuttals with the hope that those with contrary views, however 
well documented, might do likewise. 
I hope to be frozed at death. I hope there will be a system to support me in 
the frozen state until revival as a normal human with memory becomes possible. 
I hope the same for all of you and I suspect we will be as diverse a lot 
coming back as we were going in.
Ron Havelock

PS Let me know when you are in the Washington DC area, even if you disagree.  
I love a good intellectual discussion on almost any topic.

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