X-Message-Number: 22585
From: "Kitty Antonik Wakfer" <>
Subject: Despair Expressed [RE: CryoNet  #22541
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 04:48:58 -0400


 I am only now responding to this message from Charles, because it was only 
 today,

Friday 9/26, that I read it, having been virtually out of touch electronically 
since
early Wednesday 9/17.

> Message #22541
> Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:34:55 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Charles Platt <>
> Subject: Alcor membership
>
> Because this issue has recurred in several posts on CryoNet,
> the following message seems necessary, even though the topic
> is somewhat personal.
>
> My concerns about personal differences or misunderstandings
> between myself and Alcor seem to have been resolved, thanks
> to some goodwill on both sides. Also I have been urged to
> remain an Alcor member because I've been told that my
> decision to quit membership was interpreted as a vote of no
> confidence. I did emphasize (more than once) that I was not
> doubting Alcor's ability to provide service, but some people
> seemed unwilling to believe it.


How, Charles, can you expect others who know you (or of you fairly well through 
your

writings here and in other places on the Internet, and in various print media) 
to

understand that your reasons were not about Alcor itself in some manner, if you 
did

not provide adequate detail of your reasons.  You would in that case be asking 
for

them to take something on "faith", which is not something that I think you 
expect

people to do. You might reasonably request that they hold their judgment in 
abeyance

until you were able to provide an explanation, and that would be reasonable and 
many
would be willing to do so.  But to expect that they should just not make any

judgment - ever - on your actions which did not appear rational *is* irrational 
in

itself. Therefore, I am glad to have you provide some substance to your reason -
even

if the content of it, as you write below  - is not sound in my opinion. But I 
will
get to that in a minute...

>
> My primary satisfaction in cryonics has always come from
> being active--helping to provide service for people who want
> it, promoting the general concept, and trying to make
> improvements which will benefit my daughter's generation if
> not my own. I'm highly motivated to pursue these goals
> because they constitute the only defiant gesture that I can
> make in the face of human mortality, which I abhor. This
> defiance is a matter of principle rather than self-interest.

There is *no* conflict between principle and self-interest, Charles.... if the
principle is rational. And it can only be rational if it is in the widest view
long-range self-interest of the person involved.  I say the *person*, the

individual - not the group, not the family, not the tribe, not the neighborhood,
not

the nation, not the world.... It is the individual that is the essential element
of
these larger collections; and without the individual, each of these larger

collections is nothing.  We humans each have individual brains and none of us 
can

know any other human better than we each can know our individual selves. It is 
at the

*self* level that each must act first and foremost. It is at the *self* level 
that
each of us can be most effective...and when we *each* are fully integrated as

humans - fully understanding and acting on principles that are in our individual

widest view longest range individual self-interest, we will be far more 
successful in

our families, neighborhoods, towns, and even the larger associations in which we
may
choose to be members. (I purposely leave out the artificial entities related to

governments, since they are not necessary and have done, and continue to do, 
more

harm than good in the past 200 years. But that is another subject for another 
place.

<http://selfsip.org>) In the meantime, all that we can do as individuals is to 
make

every effort to improve ourselves in every manner possible with the end reward 
that

we will be happier for it - happier in the sense of maximum life-time happiness;
not
the fulfillment of momentary whims or urges. It is this concept that Paul has
described so well in his essay, "Self-Responsibility and Social Order",

<http://selfsip.org/fundamentals/selfresponsibility.html>, which is a 
supplementary
piece to his "Natural Social Contract", to be found in the writings of the
Self-Sovereign Individual Project <http://selfsip.org>.


As an additional point, Paul and I attended the IABG 10th Conference at 
Cambridge

this past weekend - a *most* stimulating experience that I will be writing about
from

a personal perspective at MoreLife in the next week or two.  Alcor had at least 
2

direct representatives there who made quite positive impressions on those with 
whom

they came in contact. Jerry Lemler was one of these. His presentation to the 
Monday

late morning audience was very informative on the scientific aspects and 
extremely

moving and convincing (at least to many) on the personal level.  He was 
obviously not

in the best of health, even to those who had never seen even a photograph of him
from
last year (he then carried far more fat on this body than one should for good

health).  Before beginning his presentation, he calmly announced that he had 
cancer

(I forget which variety it was that he said - I was too intrigued with how he 
would

and was handling a very difficult task) and spent every other week in the 
hospital
receiving therapy. He went on to say that he would be reading his presentation
because of his very recent hospital discharge, that the presentation had been

prepared by others and he had not had sufficient time to incorporate it 
adequately.

He would, however, attempt to answer any questions that might follow. Jerry very

capably presented the explanation of cryonics, accompanied by a set of excellent

power point slides via computer file, and I think he did so with great presence.
I
also think that the audience was impressed - by the scientific substance of the

presentation and by the quality and circumstances of the presenter. It was a job
well
done, something that Paul and I let Jerry know a short time afterwards, as the

attendees walked to lunch in the large dining room set aside for the conference 
usage
at Queens College.


One more point, Charles, to help you see that there is considerable hope that 
some of

us older cryonicists (those over 50) may not have to actually use cryonics in 
the

relatively near future, and that is that enormous progress is being made in the 
many

areas of anti-aging. I encourage you (and others) to read some of the abstracts 
of
the numerous presentations at the IABG 10thCongress

<http://www.gen.cam.ac.uk/iabg10/>  to make yourself aware of the capabilities 
in the

fight against death that are present now and even more that are close at hand. 
There

is no reason to despair about the scientific tools that can be created by humans
to

eliminate or at least greatly prolong the actual coming of death. There is also 
an

enormous amount each person alive today can do him/herself to improve/maintain a

excellent state of health in order to be still alive and capable of making use 
of the

newest "proven" advances 20 years from now. (Questions about this aspect should 
be

raised at sci.life-extension and/or MoreLife Yahoo so that others can benefit 
from
the discussion.)

>
> I am less interested in receiving cryonics service myself
> because my response to aging and death is sadness rather than
> fear, and I question whether cryonics will do much to
> mitigate the overwhelming sadness when I'm on my death bed.
> Even if resuscitation turns out to be possible, I will be
> facing decades of oblivion in the interim.


Now you are really getting to the crux of *your* problem - thoughts that you 
will be

required to spend decades doing nothing...paralyzed completely with a brain 
active

and aware ... and incapable of stopping the passage of time.  Now I understand 
your

lack of enthusiasm; the sense of the waste of it - all of it, if you must be 
locked

in a dewar-prison, unable to break the seal. Your mind a prisoner of the deep, 
cold,

dark dewar, filled with LN2, not even air. I understand this fear of lack of 
control.

As a bipolar, I've experienced several times this lack of mental control and can

understand your fear - yes, I think there is a real element of fear in your 
expressed

sadness. And even if the sadness is the major component, that too is informative
to
me, because I too could be sad at the thought that I know of no way to totally

eliminate the possibility that I will find myself in or on the brink of mania 
again.
I am a person who knows that I walk a narrow plank sometimes between rational

thoughts and actions - and what many have termed insanity. I could be sad that 
my

whole life will be this way, and that I must constantly be watching myself for 
signs

that the narrow walkway has become a balance beam or tightrope.  But I have 
learned

that this gives me a unique perspective on life and a set of tools that few 
others -

except perhaps other manic depressives - can appreciate fully in their goal to 
be a
better individual, striving for optimum lifetime happiness.


After reading your concerns, I actually thought about what it would be like if 
my

mind were conscious in some manner during the time I was in suspended animation.
Could I ride a gentle way of motion as the fetus does in the uterus, in the

possibility that it would be like an undulating surface upon which my mind could

drift from subject to subject, image to image, story to story of those captured 
in my
mind from a lifetime of books read, conversations had, movies watched,

sensations/feelings experienced? Could I do such a thing and have no sense of 
the

passage of time, have no fear of the dark, cold, deep - fears natural to 
conscious

humans. But I have no reason to think that such a demand would be made of me. 
I've

undergone general anesthesia numerous times and recovered with no recall of the 
time

actually unconscious.  Therefore why should I expect that I would be aware of 
the
time passing in the dewar when all biochemical processes have been suspended?

Am I fearful that I would know none of those in the world into which I was

resuscitated? No, because I have confidence that at least Paul will either be 
there

ahead of me or soon afterwards.  We both take all the measures that are 
reasonable
for anti-aging purposes for someone over 50, and we virtually never go anywhere

without the other. I can only think of rare unlikely scenarios whereby one or 
the

other of us was successfully resuscitated and the other not. Therefore at the 
worst,

we will likely have each other in a world of initial strangers. But we are 
adaptable
individuals and know that we can be successful anywhere. And even if the

"unspeakable" should occur, both Paul and I know that we are capable of loving 
others

with the same high values of rationality, independence, integrity, justice, 
virtue -
and never need to forget the memory of the other.


I would like to know, Charles, how long you have felt this way?  When did this 
first

begin? How far back does it go? Was this feeling present when you, along with 
others

(including Paul) left Alcor to form CryoCare? Was this your sense of life when 
you

took over the Cryocare Presidency from another party who had succeeded Brenda?  
Was

this behind your actions and inactions when you guided the activities - the life
and

death - of CryoCare? How far back does it go, Charles? I would like you to 
seriously
think about it and tell me - a private email is acceptable if you'd rather not

discuss this in public. I realize that not all people are ready yet to be as 
public

about themselves as Paul and I are.  I will not push you nor demand that you 
respond
in public; nor will I publicize what you write me in private - if that is your

requirement for providing the answers to the questions above.  I would like to 
help,

not ridicule you, nor shame you. I understand the weight of emotional burdens 
and I

am most willing to help you adjust the backpack that you - and yes, all of us - 
must
carry in life as a requirement for being truly human, truly an adult human.

>
> Because of my personal outlook, quitting membership didn't
> seem such a big deal to me, especially since I have gone
> without coverage twice before. However, for obvious reasons I
> never wanted my choice to damage Alcor. Some people did seem
> worried about this, and my primary concerns about personal
> issues have been addressed. Consequently today I told Alcor's
> membership administrator that I will not execute the form
> that she sent me to retrieve ownership of my life insurance.
>
> By default, my Alcor membership will remain in effect.
>
> --Charles Platt
>
>

**Kitty Antonik Wakfer
MoreLife for the rational - http://morelife.org
Reality based tools for more life in quantity and quality
Self-Sovereign Individual Project - http://selfsip.org
Rational freedom by self-sovereignty & social contracting

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