X-Message-Number: 22597
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 20:18:34 +0200
Subject: Re: The White Lodge of Cryonics
From: David Stodolsky <>

On Saturday, September 27, 2003, at 08:32  PM, Peter Merel wrote:
>
> We're butting up against psychological fundamentals here. God and
> Death. Responses to these aren't hard-wired, thank goodness, or else
> even we pervects wouldn't have been able to shake 'em and approach the
> matter rationally ourselves. But plainly for 99.99+% of humanity, the
> scientific explanation of a rational precaution against an avoidable
> fate has no meaning at all.

I don't think this is supported by data. While there have been few 
studies, unrealistic estimates of cost seem to generate a major 
objection people have toward cryonics. Suspended animation is widely 
accepted as a future technology associated with space flight and many 
people believe that it is within the range of current technology. I 
meet college educated (not in the physical sciences) Danes, who think 
that suspension can be applied to living persons.



>
> Plainly this idea is distinct from Venturism, at least as that is
> presently contemplated. Venturism is a cult of rationality and
> fair-dealing - and so inherently self-limiting - where this would be a
> cult of irrationality and subterfuge. There are precedents for this;
> tao chia, the rationalistic/philosophical version of taoism, was
> preserved through multiple generations by allowing its tenets to be
> incorporated in tao chiao, the entirely loopy religious version of
> taoism. And then there's the jesuits and pythagoreans inside
> catholicism and the kabbalists inside judaism.

The setting of Venturism against the 'irrational' is probably not 
justifiable from a psychological standpoint. Certainly the distinction 
between the rational elements of religious world views and their 
irrational sub-groups is not supportable.

On the other hand, I think many people would sign up for rescue by 
'time travel', if packaged correctly. This could be considered an 
irrational approach to the question immortality by physical means. One 
step up from this is preservation by plastinization, which probably 
could be organized at minimal expense using current techniques. 
Psychologically, it would be equivalent to cryonics suspension.


>
> Maybe we could adapt Shinto. The Shintoists are ancestor-worshippers,
> and scrupulous ones. If we could convince 'em that this is the best way
> for great grand pappa-san to smile on their endeavors ... but given
> where Cryonics is and who we are I think we'd be best off preying on
> the christians.

I haven't studied it, but Shinto includes the idea of 'spirits' of the 
dead, that can be extremely troublesome immediately after death. This 
creates a great resistance to any procedure like cryonics, as far as I 
can see.

The type of Zen which includes long fasts might be a better bet. The 
most holy are men that have, thru starvation and consumption of 
selected fluids, 'mummified' themselves.


>
> Joe Smith's story is a veritable how-to manual for grafting your pet
> kink onto christianity. Smith's was polygamy where ours is immortalism.
> Can you think of any reason why the Mormons should have the big white
> marble temple in every town and we should not?

Yes. The Momons created a way of life that supported their world view. 
That temple is where you gain self-esteem for your contributions to the 
community. It is where you find your future wife. In the earliest days 
of Mormonism, the entire community operated as unit, which was 
essential for survival under harsh conditions. It was one of the most 
successful examples of religious communism, in its early period.


So, while the details of what is being suggested are probably 
incorrect, the overall point is valid. Venturism, as currently 
structured, doesn't function as system to guide persons toward cryonic 
suspension as a logical and inevitable step, but only to protect those 
already committed to it. That is, Venturism isn't a way of life, which 
includes cryonics as an element, but a vehicle for cryonicists to 
protect their interests (not that there is anything wrong with this).


dss



David S. Stodolsky    SpamTo: 

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