X-Message-Number: 22605 Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 09:45:09 -0700 From: "John Grigg" <> Subject: Re: The Great White Lodge of Cryonics Peter Merel wrote: Let's see, where are we up to? Both the main orgs have problems. I don't think it's fair to say the problems threaten their ability to continue. But it seems like if we lost a few more key players to injury or politics we'd reach that point. We place a terrible burden on those few of our number who are willing to shoulder it. Running a cryonics org isn't fun. It's isn't entrepreneurial. It's obviously a grind. (end) It's amazing cryonics got this far with such a dedicated but small core group but I do not believe it is running out talented & dedicated adherents who can take it the rest of the way. Yes, the leaders in a cryonics organization can be worn down by the pressures but that is no reason to start up "The Church of Alcor" or "The Church of the Cryonics Institute" quite yet... you continue: If we had more adherents, more potential income sources, that might change. But the mode of presentation of cryonics we have used since the publication of Ettinger's book will never provide such change. We appeal to rationalists. And there simply aren't many of them. (end) Even many rationalists in the form of secular humanists and militant atheists reject cryonics! lol I HONESTLY BELIEVE THE GROUP TO APPEAL TO ARE YOUNG PEOPLE IN COLLEGE WHO ARE STILL LOOKING FOR THEIR PLACE IN LIFE. you continue: We're butting up against psychological fundamentals here. God and Death. Responses to these aren't hard-wired, thank goodness, or else even we pervects wouldn't have been able to shake 'em and approach the matter rationally ourselves. But plainly for 99.99+% of humanity, the scientific explanation of a rational precaution against an avoidable fate has no meaning at all. (end) Sometimes I think the mistake is saddling cryonics with heavyhanded atheistic philosophical trappings. We might do better simply representing cryonics as an extreme medical procedure to greatly extend life. Let the former matter be strictly an "optional item to buy." you continue: And that's fine. There's nothing wrong with those "deathists" we rail against. They're perfectly normal people. It's just that you can trust a perfectly normal person about as far as you can spit. No farther. It's we kinky immortalists who have the problem here. It's our problem, for us to solve. Once we honestly accept that - that we don't need to agree with the normals, but only to find a way to work with them - we might be able to do something about it. (end) Immortality is OUR problem for now until mainstream scientists solve it over the next 30-80 years. And so we have cryonics as our theoretical safety net in the meantime. I realize some cryonicists hope the baby boomer generation will see things our way as they get older and have to start considering their own mortality but I have my doubts. you continue: We need to create a class of people to tend our bodies when we've de-animated. Employees won't do it - anyone whose loyalties depend on the highest bidder isn't someone I want my existence to rely on for several decades. We need a class of people who are fundamentally and psychologically locked in to doing it. We need them to be mind-fucked into doing it. We need a class of true-believers, thralls, people who would actually die to keep the nitrogen topped up in the dewars. (end) Peter, do you realize the public and journalists can easily access Cryonet? This is NOT what I want them to be reading about us. Creating a cult-like organization to brainwash recruits to maintain and protect the dewars we will be in for decades may seem like a good idea to you, at least until disenfranchised former members or enraged relatives break in and use high explosives to display their displeasure at the object of the the cult members affections. you continue: Do you suddenly feel a pang of guilt? Is it even slightly fair to ask someone to die so that you can have a chance to live again? Well, no, it's not. It's bald-faced egotism and megalomania to want to do that. (end) I'm glad you at least added this insight! you continue: And yet there are people who will do it for us. If not for us, for someone or something far stupider. Robert Anton Wilson's "Secret Of Power" is that "a disciple is an asshole looking for a human being to attach itself to". Since 99.99+ % of humanity are determined to be non-rational thralls to someone or something non-rational, is there really any terrible moral problem in proposing some proportion of them be thralls to US? (end) There IS a terrible moral problem in proposing we brainwash people into joining a cryonics cult, even a benign one. And in time it could blow up in our face and YOU would never get to see the future if you were in one of the dewars targeted by the apostates and their friends. you continue: Is Pete about to turn Elron on cryonet? No, I'm not proposing to do this per se. I'm proposing that we talk about it and turn it over in our minds. Look at the angles. I personally don't want to enslave anyone. I prefer to think we could do this by actually freeing enslaved minds. That people would enter such an organization in full-on disciple mode, and as they progressed through the ranks they'd be taught more and more rationality until, at the top, they'd become cryonicists and transhumanists themselves. (end) Max More of the Extropy Institute once said he considered in his early years to start a transhumanist/California style cult but he just did not have the stomach to betray his ideals in such a way. The man must be respected for that. The idea of revealing higher and higher truths to members of a group is something very formalized among organizations like the Masons. And I do think if something like this were ever done the Masons are the group which should be closely looked at and copied. you continue: Plainly this idea is distinct from Venturism, at least as that is presently contemplated. Venturism is a cult of rationality and fair-dealing - and so inherently self-limiting - where this would be a cult of irrationality and subterfuge. There are precedents for this; tao chia, the rationalistic/philosophical version of taoism, was preserved through multiple generations by allowing its tenets to be incorporated in tao chiao, the entirely loopy religious version of taoism. And then there's the jesuits and pythagoreans inside catholicism and the kabbalists inside judaism. (end) Or how about transhumanism/cryonics being incorporated into Unitarianism? I am amazed there is not a Transhumanist/Unitarian denomination out in the world doing well. You would expect at least a thriving congregation in the Silicon Valley area. you continue: Maybe we could adapt Shinto. The Shintoists are ancestor-worshippers, and scrupulous ones. If we could convince 'em that this is the best way for great grand pappa-san to smile on their endeavors ... but given where Cryonics is and who we are I think we'd be best off preying on the christians. (end) "Preying" off Christians? Gee, I just love your sentiments... : ( you continue: Joe Smith's story is a veritable how-to manual for grafting your pet kink onto christianity. Smith's was polygamy where ours is immortalism. Can you think of any reason why the Mormons should have the big white marble temple in every town and we should not? (end) Have you paid the price yet in blood, sweat, martyrdom and toil? It took The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints well over a century to get to the level of financial/political power they now enjoy (and boy do they enjoy it!). you wrote: >Awaiting the pillory, The pillory is just too good for you! : ) David S. Stodolsky wrote: Yes. The Momons created a way of life that supported their world view. That temple is where you gain self-esteem for your contributions to the community. It is where you find your future wife. In the earliest days of Mormonism, the entire community operated as unit, which was essential for survival under harsh conditions. It was one of the most successful examples of religious communism, in its early period. (end) David's words here are succinctly stated. Our movement will in a small but growing way move in this direction with the creation of the Ventureville cryonics community in Mayer, Arizona. I just hope we don't wind up with even half the contention and strife the early Mormons experienced among themselves and their neighbors! ; ) David continued: So, while the details of what is being suggested are probably incorrect, the overall point is valid. Venturism, as currently structured, doesn't function as system to guide persons toward cryonic suspension as a logical and inevitable step, but only to protect those already committed to it. That is, Venturism isn't a way of life, which includes cryonics as an element, but a vehicle for cryonicists to protect their interests (not that there is anything wrong with this). (end) These are good observations but in time due to the Ventureville community we will see a dual function where we not only protect our members by providing a home/community for them (and even a way of life to an extent!) but also reach out and try to persuade people to join us. It will be a very interesting time to be a cryonicist. best wishes, John Grigg Venturist Secretary and Advisor www.venturist.org Alcor Member General Manager of the Creekside Preserve Lodge www.creeksidepreserve.com ____________________________________________________________ Get advanced SPAM filtering on Webmail or POP Mail ... Get Lycos Mail! http://login.mail.lycos.com/r/referral?aid=27005 Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=22605