X-Message-Number: 22711
From: "Kitty Antonik Wakfer" <>
Subject: RE: CryoNet #22586 - #22594
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 00:28:56 -0400

I started responding to several of these posts within a couple days of receipt, 

then the mania that started taking over my mind 9/22 during day 4 of Aubrey de 

mind expanding/breaking conference at Cambridge, really went into high gear and 

left this reality for several days.  I've been "myself" again since early last 

Paul has earned a medal of honor in my book since caring for a bipolar in 

mania is a momentous task.  This is the first time I didn't have to be 
hospitalized -

or was simply taken to the ER or doctor's office and presented with a shrug as 

"what can you do with her?".  So the explanation for my much delayed response...
still think the comments are worth saying, even if late.

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Message #22586
> From: "John de Rivaz" <>
> Subject: funeral directors
> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 11:07:52 +0100
> I think it is in error to suggest that funeral directors have any interest
> in destroying the cryonics movement.

> Considering now the funeral directors as a profession -- their power base
> and their incomes are set for substantial increase if the practise of
> cryonics comes widespread.
> Lawyers and regulators also stand to gain more income if they don't stamp
> out cryonics, but milk it for fees.
> Individuals *within* any profession are quite different.


Well said, John. It is the *individual* that is the essential point here; 

who can do harm or provide benefit. For those who do not follow John's 
reasoning, I
will add here that the practice of using "generalization linguistics" is a poor
idea - it tends to fuzzy one's mind. If you haven't yet done so, I suggest that

reading Paul's essay, "Essential Collectivism in Language: its Effects on 

Thinking", <http://selfsip.org/fundamentals/we.html>, which is a supplementary 
to his "Declaration of Individual Independence",

<http://selfsip.org/solutions/DOII_annotated.html>, to be found in the writings 
the Self-Sovereign Individual Project <http://selfsip.org>.

**Kitty Antonik Wakfer
MoreLife for the rational - http://morelife.org
Reality based tools for more life in quantity and quality
Self-Sovereign Individual Project - http://selfsip.org
Rational freedom by self-sovereignty & social contracting

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Message #22588
> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 10:10:30 -0400
> From: Thomas Donaldson <>
> Subject: CryoNet #22574 - #22578
> As I live now in Australia his comments about getting suspension cases
> to Scottsdale or the CI clearly need answering.


Thanks, Thomas, for a thorough explanation of your plans; I'd wondered several 

over the years how you were planning to actually get to the US and Alcor - 
should and

when it becomes necessary.  Most of us have our contingency plans and sharing 

details can show others that we have considered all the risks of being where we 

and even in the particular state of "sign-up" we choose to remain until the 

of our health deteriorates significantly.  For some of us that means a state in 
we no longer can maintain the high level of health we are in currently.

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Message #22591
> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 11:32:03 -0700
> Subject: The White Lodge of Cryonics
> From: Peter Merel <>
> Let's see, where are we up to? Both the main orgs have problems. I
> don't think it's fair to say the problems threaten their ability to
> continue. But it seems like if we lost a few more key players to injury
> or politics we'd reach that point. We place a terrible burden on those
> few of our number who are willing to shoulder it. Running a cryonics
> org isn't fun. It's isn't entrepreneurial. It's obviously a grind.

> We're butting up against psychological fundamentals here. God and
> Death. Responses to these aren't hard-wired, thank goodness, or else
> even we pervects wouldn't have been able to shake 'em and approach the
> matter rationally ourselves. But plainly for 99.99+% of humanity, the
> scientific explanation of a rational precaution against an avoidable
> fate has no meaning at all.
> And that's fine. There's nothing wrong with those "deathists" we rail
> against. They're perfectly normal people. It's just that you can trust
> a perfectly normal person about as far as you can spit. No farther.
> It's we kinky immortalists who have the problem here. It's our problem,
> for us to solve. Once we honestly accept that - that we don't need to
> agree with the normals, but only to find a way to work with them - we
> might be able to do something about it.

You are asking the right questions, IMO, Peter. I just don't think your 
suggestion of

a cryonics version of Masonry is the answer in the long run. However, I will 

that some, perhaps even many, have derived considerable personal growth from 

Masons, but I contend that the better way is for individuals mature 
emotionally in a different way. I contend that a stronger more beneficial
metamorphosis of the individual will come from within each using the best tools

accessible to him/her, available at the place for each period in time in life. 

process can not be forced if it is to be effective, truly so for the individual 
therefore of greatest benefit to those around and in association with that

individual.  Of course, Masonry is voluntary; no man is forced to enter.  But it

also quite a closed organization, which was a judicious practice in years long 

when an association of individuals could be destroyed by the "well chosen" word 
to a
government official.

In today's world of the internet, the sources of information are almost endless.

there is junk there just as there are jewels to be valued - not simply to be 

but to be used in the sense of tool. Paul and I like to think of ourselves - 

"for" MoreLife as much as it is correct to say that entities of ideas can speak 
- as

producers of "jewels" in various areas that others will seek to use like 

diamonds. While Paul and I have been concentrating the majority of our efforts 
year on the Self-Sovereign Individual Project, we have not abandoned the

life-extension portions of MoreLife, which includes cryonics. And even moreso, 

think that many of the cryonicists whom we know would benefit greatly by 
their life-extension practices - nutrition, sleep, exercise, supplementation,
appropriate use of drugs/chemicals, relaxation, and fulfillment.


The philosophical basis, or one's sense of life for those who have not 

considered the most essential aspects of life, underlies all the ideas that a 

holds, whether he wishes to acknowledge that or not. (This denial would then be 
of that person's sense of life - that life has no meaning or value.) It is not

necessary in this period of man's evolution for anyone in a civilized 
environment to

choose or seek religion for the answers. These can be found among the products 
of the

minds of rational humans via books, tapes, CDs, the Internet - all to be chosen 

Nor, Paul and I will contend, is it necessary for humans to be *governed*, 
by others by physical force, to make decisions deemed appropriate/desirable for

others. For detailed reasoning on this subject, I defer to Paul, and those of 
writings already online.


> Joe Smith's story is a veritable how-to manual for grafting your pet
> kink onto christianity. Smith's was polygamy where ours is immortalism.
> Can you think of any reason why the Mormons should have the big white
> marble temple in every town and we should not?

Peter, here you are asking the wrong question. It is not why "the Mormons should

the big white marble temple in every town and we should not", but rather why any

group of individuals should be barred from carrying on mutually agreed to 
by interference in regulation or taxes or any of the numerous ways in which

governments distort the market place, of goods and services.  The proper 

follows what I wrote above about having liberty to make one's own decisions - 
and to

be responsible for the consequences, including restitution of damage done. 
(These are

concepts covered in the SelfSIP and you are encouraged to read them and bring 
comments/questions to MoreLife Yahoo.)

> Awaiting the pillory,

Actually, I found your post the most interesting of this digest, and I praise 
you for
asking some untypical questions .

> Peter Merel.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Message #22592
> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 12:14:28 -0700
> From: James Swayze <>
> Subject: On the other hand, re: cryonics vs funeral
> References: <>
> >Message #22581
> >From: "Basie" <>
> >References: <>
> >Subject: Funeral Industry
> >Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 18:10:32 -0400
> >
> >Many people in Cryonics live in a dream world. The funeral industry will
> >crush Cryonics as if it is a fruit fly. I think a small organization like
> >cryonics should avoid confrontation with giants.
> >
> >Basie
> >
> >
> Basie and folks,
> On the other hand, that fight may well be inevitable. If it is so then
> there is possibly some value in being in the position of or seen as a
> David versus Goliath. People, especially in this country, the US, love
> the underdog. In the US we have a strong and long tradition of
> distrusting large corporate or government interests that often seem not
> to have the best interests of the little folks at heart. I believe this
> is especially so recently with large corporate excesses such as Enron
> and Worldcom.
> While we are yet "the little guy" we may well have some public sympathy
> even though for some cryonics seems a little weird. Americans do still
> tend to feel everyone should be allwed to exercise free choices so long
> as it does not hurt others. So I guess I'm saying if the fight is to be
> fought someday regardless, is there value in having it now or will the
> environment be more favorable later? I only know I don't have that answer.
> However, I think the public is wise enough to choose against the funeral
> industry grabbing more powers if it were put to the public in the right
> frame such as:


> James

What you and many others do not consider about the funeral industry is that it 

become a sort of "travel agency industry" for those leaving "this life" with the

current methods being burial or cremation (into the typical and sometimes 

places) or cryopreservation or suspended animation. Funeral homes even if they 
do not

actually provide the latter services but would be the waystation used by the 

(including those who are anatomically donating their bodies for future 

This is not my original idea, but one Paul had many years ago and retold it to 

with the recent hub-bub about funeral industry phobia. As I recall him telling 
me, it

seems that he was approached years ago in southern California - probably back in

early days of CryoCare or maybe even prior to that - to arrange for teaching a 

to student morticians about cryopreservation. But the most technically 

person then wouldn't cooperate - saw no value - and the whole idea fell 
sounds familiar doesn't it?

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Message #22593
> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 18:18:51 -0700
> Subject: I have never seen a post like this before (was Potvin's Problem...)
> References:  <>
> From:  (Tim Freeman)


> Assuming Rick really wrote it, my opinion of him just went up a few
> notches.

I agree and think the same, since my opinion had dropped in recent weeks when I 
of the assumptions being made w/o verification.

Hope Rick is succeeding at his own introspection - determining his purpose and

finding what is necessary to get there.  Everybody ought to seriously introspect
periodically with a rational philosophical basis.

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