X-Message-Number: 22768
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 00:52:48 -0800
From: James Swayze <>
Subject: Please reconsider your misconceptions regarding cryonics
References: <>

>Message #22761
>Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 15:25:27 -0500
>Subject: Alcor politics

>Thomas Donaldson writes from Australia complaining about the lack of 
information regarding court cases and the internal politics of Alcor.

>I think any onlooker can see that Alcor is in a precarious position.  Popular 
opinion believes people should be buried or cremated when they die.  The general
public feels there is something obscene about preserving people through 
It might help the situation if you could drop the misconceptions you 
yourself apparently have about cryonics. In example you say,

"Cryopreservation is not for me,: I assured Farrey. "I hate the cold. 
Being put upside down in a tank of liquid nitrogen and kept at minus 320 
degrees would give me 'an ice cream headache for eternity'..

Surely you realize this is totally bogus and hardly scientific. There is 
no possibility that you would ever feel any of the coldness and I 
speculate this is true even for eventual reanimation procedures. I am 
certain that repairs to our bodies will be done while we are well and 
quite still unconscious and still quite cold and that even as we are 
warmed we will be anesthetized. Waking from cryonic suspension will be 
like waking from general anesthesia in the recovery ward of any hospital 
today only then it will be much much more sophisticated.

If you really don't feel this way, actually knowing better 
scientifically but choosing not to say so, and it was instead a clever 
quip to bolster your image or allay your nervousness while in the 
company of a man you seem to have admired more than professionally then 
I must say it is even more a disservice being so frivolous with our most 
serious of endeavors. Please reconsider your position on cryonics if 
this is indeed how you feel about it. For your own good and personal 
survival you need a more accurate personal portrayal of what cryonics 
truly is and will be about. But more than that, as you go about 
associating us with cloning, something cryonics will not even depend 
upon, then if we must have rub off on us the unfavorable views against 
cloning please do us the courtesy of not feeding the enemy with more 
false and inaccurate ammunition they certainly will twist against us.

>We saw the media play to these prejudices with the coverage of how Ted Williams
head was removed from his body.  That was considered "horrible" by the media. 
So why did you add fuel to the fire by speculating with ESPN about 
cloning Ted? You say yourself this was not the true motive of John 
Henry, as we all know, and that his spiteful and lying half sister made 
it and the DNA selling stories up simply in order to vilify her half 
brother and manipulate the press and the situation in her favor. We all 
know all too well what her true motive was and remains from the start in 
her making up such lies. She as much as extorted, nay blackmailed, her 
family in order to get herself back into the Will that her father wisely 
left her out of. Why did you not report her obvious to anyone with half 
a brain motive?

By even answering the least of any questions as regards cloning in the 
context of Ted Williams just adds fodder for these miscreants to build 
up anti cryonics fervor against us. Surely you could see this. I would 
expect this from some talking head that had no love for cryonics or 
those involved. You seem to be friendly towards cryonics and we 
cryonicists so why did you even chance giving them more ammunition? I 
understand your being a reproductive cloning activist. I am one myself 
though not as active as you. I have appeared on television in support of 
cloning. But if I were asked to comment in public regarding cloning and 
how it relates to cryonics I'd in the very least be sure to point out 
that it is not even necessary for cryonics to work and should not be co 
mingled in the minds of the science illiterate. Going only on what you 
report about your interview, unless I missed something, it does not 
appear that you expressed strongly enough to Mr. Farrey that cloning was 
not and is not John Henry Williams' motive.

I even find your speculation about producing a sports talented clone of 
Ted to be wildly inaccurate. You cite the work of researchers but stress 
only what favors your opinion. You quote:

Wright concluded,'It is amazing how much identical twins ten to be alike 
in some abilities only to be so different in others.

However, you go on to stress the similarities but say little about the 
"so different in others" part of the equation. You continue:

"Absolutely." I replied. "Unless the woman carrying the later-born twin 
had inadequate nutrition, a later-born twin would have the same ability 
as Tiger.

"Then Tiger would have something to worry about." Farrey theorized.

"You bet he would." I continued. " In fact, perhaps if the later-born 
twin had better nutrition in the womb, he might be even better than the 

Actually I assert that a raised with better nutrition twin would not 
necessarily be better talented, in fact he might tend to be muscle bound 
and constricted in movement by being overly strong for that sport.

I have often said that a clone of me would not even look like me. My 
case is a little to one side of the spectrum though but the analogy 
carries with other, even the slightest, of environmental influences. A 
clone of me would have to have lived my exact life in order to look like 
me. In point of fact when I was 7 years of age I was runt. I was 
diagnosed with thyroid deficiency and given supplements until age 13. I 
had such a growth spurt one summer that I went from being short and 
pudgy to tall and leaner and still have stretch marks on my biceps from 
the rapid growth too quick for the skin to keep up. My clone not given 
the exact dosage of supplements as I would not possibly look the same 
and be my current 6'5" 230 lb.. frame.

If looks would not be exacted then what can we say about personality? 
Talent is more than physical ability alone. A clone of Ted would need to 
live in an environment very similar to the original's to even have the 
same attitude toward baseball and especially the same work ethic, 
consider pay for ball player then vs now. How about the influences of 
the great depression and WWII on Ted? Some of his talent is attributed 
to his better than 20/20 eyesight. Could said eyesight be influenced by 
differing environments? I think so, consider simply differing attitudes 
toward protection from sun damage to skin and eyes from his times and 
some future date.

All things considered I don't think speculation about cloning Ted for 
his talent was even viable enough to risk giving the anti science pro 
sports zealotry media more fodder to use against us.

One last thing comes to mind regarding your own attitude toward 
cryonics. You say,

"I'd settle for freezing just a few cells.

Is this some indication of your opinion of personal survival? Do you 
think a clone of you constitutes your surviving death? If so I have got 
news for you... it is NOT. A clone of you is not even close enough to 
being YOU to even enter the realm of the perennial "duplicates as you 
identity" argument here on cryonet. If YOU wish to survive death, then 
YOU had better either survive until aging and death have been made null 
and void or get signed up for your feared worst of all ice cream headaches.

> Yet burning a person up and turning them into nothing but ashes is considered 

You make some very good points about cryonics vs the alternative but 
they would carry more weight if you were not merely speculating 
academically. I support your efforts for reproductive cloning rights for 
anyone wishing to do so and for how these rights and laws proposed 
against them have spilled over to therapeutic cloning, something that 
mainstream medicine, anti aging medicine and life extension in general 
could benefit from. Keep up the good work. But please as you do be 
careful how you associate cryonics in the mix.


Cryonics Institute of Michigan 	http://www.cryonics.org
The Immortalist Society 	http://www.cryonics.org/info.html
The Society for Venturism 	http://www.venturist.org
Immortality Institute 		http://www.imminst.org

MY WEBSITE: http://www.davidpascal.com/swayze/

Signature Memetic Virus--The worst enemy of those who now or will need medical 
care is the uninformed politician or moral fanatic who proscribe what doctors 
are allowed to prescribe and research, with the consent of their patients. Those
who understand this are strongly encouraged to modify this to fit their 
personality, and add this to their signature file, and organize to recover our 
freedom from Big Brother. For those who wait until they are sick, it will be too
late. Those who suffer from diseases which might have been cured by advanced 
medical research or schedule 1 drugs banned by Big Brother, have the right to 
hold accountable those who sat on their hands or worse, deferred their 
responsibility for personal and humanity's survival to unseen mystical agents, 
while they remained ill and dying.

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