X-Message-Number: 22823 Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 14:58:48 -0800 (PST) From: Jeff Davis <> Subject: Re: impact of the most famous cryonicist Cryonetistas, I respectfully disagree with Doug's characterization of "unmitigated disaster" below. I'm reminded of Ghandi's statement: "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." For years cryonics was ignored. Then for years it was laughed at. I had no problem with that. People are free to have whatever opinion suits them. Free to laugh hale and hearty at whatever. It was nothing to me. I was still free to make my cryonics contract. Their attitude was strictly the "names" part of the "sticks and stones" protocol. But now, things are changing. People have stopped laughing and are getting a serious look in their eye. A little scary perhaps, but on balance a GOOD thing. Regulation can be good. Why? How? Well, people who are laughing and not taking you seriously are under no obligation to study what their laughing at, to be informed. But regulators are supposed to get the full inventory of facts, from all concerned parties, and to weigh those facts rationally, and come to a decision that is legally and ethically consistent, and in the best interest of society. (Now, I say "supposed to", when in fact, those with the power to regulate can be, and often are expedient, corrupt, or just plain close-minded.) But--remember Ghandi's 'protocol'--you DO have to put up that fight. You do have to beat them about the head and shoulders with a stick. As the recent events in Boca Raton bear out. You go to the hospital and place your health, you life, your fate in the hands of certified and regulated medical professionals. Society holds these professionals to the highest possible standard, there is no tolerance for abuse or neglect on their part, enforced by innumerable layers of regulation. This is a cultural norm with a loooong history. The Hippocratic oath. The golden age of Greece, if I recall correctly. "Do no harm." With the advent of cryonics (Cryonics trivia: Year on for cryonics was 1877, when nitrogen gas was first liquified.), the declaration of death violates the principle of "do no harm". The declaration of death: begs the question--of whether you are indeed dead--you're not; covers up the mournful and somewhat embarrassing truth that the medical profession has reached the end of its capability, and stands now naked in their humility, gazing out across the abyss of helplessness; and then, in accordance with a long and contextually reasonable cultural tradition, legitimizes your disposal on a burning rubbish pile in a hole in the ground. This does harm. Grave harm, in light of what is now known about cellular viability at the moment of declaration, and those further possibilities with which readers of this list are so familiar. Thus the 'battle' lines are drawn. We must redefine death. We must claim the right, and do so by insisting that the basis of the definition be rational rather than traditional. We must point out that medical helplessness cannot serve as the foundation of a definition of death. Ethics is compulsory. It forces the issue. Challenge for the ethical standard, and take possession. The time has come for cryonics to claim its proper place as the penultimate logical step in the medical protocol. The current practice of dumping your patient in the trash and turning your back violates the ethical standards to which both medical and regulatory professionals have long been held. Cryonics is medicine--emergency medicine--and should bear the burdens and enjoy the benefits of a regulatory regime that recognizes it as such. We've waited a long time for this fight. Don't shy away from it. Embrace it. It's a good thing. Best, Jeff Davis "Our father was not a religious man. The faith that many people place in God, we place in science and other human endeavors." John Henry and Claudia Williams Message #22796 Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 10:15:40 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Skrecky <> Subject: impact of the most famous cryonicist Doug wrote: The most famous cryonicist was Ted Williams. For years there has been hope that a truly famous person would throw his/her hat into the cryonics camp, raise the public awareness of cryonics, and accrue massive "benefits" to this small cottage industry. Earlier an attempt to lure Timothy Leary into the fold floun- dered, and it wasn't until Ted Williams was frozen that "success" was acheived. The fallout of this "success" has been an unmitigated diaster where all cryonics related companies have come under regulatory threat. Suspended Animation may be shut down by animal activists. CI has been temporarily shut down, and Alcor's president has fallen, and this company is now also under acute threat, with a serious attempt at a shut down expected from this corner. In retrospect I submit that the above or a similar sequence of negative events was inevitable after the first truly famous person was suspended. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=22823