X-Message-Number: 22860
From: randy <>
Subject: Re:responses to  CryoNet #22847 - #22856
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 09:41:09 -0600
References: <>

On 17 Nov 2003 10:00:01 -0000, various people wrote

>Message #22847
>Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 10:07:47 -0500 (EST)
>From: Charles Platt <>
>Subject: Half baked

>All of this, needless to say, should be INCREDIBLY OBVIOUS,
>and the pie-in-the-sky theorizing about establishing cryonics
>in other countries is at best a doubtful use of one's time
>and at worst is actually deleterious to the provision of
>cryonics services in this country, since it distracts us from
>the hard problems and intense needs that we have here. I
>don't think it's coincidental that the wishful thinking has
>coincided with a time of exceptional challenges among US
>cryonics organizations. How lamentable that instead of
>addressing these challenges there is an impractical yearning
>to get away from it all by going someplace else. 

More like a yearning to have a backup plan in case a congressman
attaches an "outlaw cryonics" rider to a popular bill, which may then
be approved by the Senate and the President and made into law.  It
could happen. In fact, such spurious bill riders are approved every
year.  You think it could not happen in the near future, considering
the aftermath of the Johnson fiasco? 

Myself, I want a backup plan, and thanks to my Canadian-born mother
and my Belfast-born grandmother, I have one. I am about to order a
copy of my maternal grandmother's North Ireland birth certificate and
my mother's Canadian birth certificate, which will get me Canadian and
Irish citizenship almost immediately (once the paperwork is processed)
and the right to live/work in Canada and all the EU countries, such as
Britain/UK, Netherlands, Belgium, France (yeah, I know--cryonics is
outlawed in France), etc. 

What, Charles, will you do if some anti-cryonics rider is passed in
Congress and the Senate and signed into law by Our BlueBlooded
RedNeck?  Will you then move back to the UK and be my neighbor?

And then Bryan Hall wrote:



>This is a positive news clip on cryonics I found on the net. It should open 
directly into your computers video player. 

Nice clip, from what I could see of it. Charles is on the video
explaining cryonics, at least from I could see of it using my 56K
dialup connection (hey, I am nothing if not cheap!).  I could not
save/download the video to a file so that I could watch it without
streaming it; does anyone here know how to get this video downloaded
to a permanent file?

>Message #22851
>Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 22:40:47 +0100
>Subject: Re: which country will be first to legalize cryonics?
>From: David Stodolsky <>

>> I am thinking that if any country would be able to legalize cryonics,
>> it would be one of the northwestern European countries, such as
>> Switzerland, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, etc.  THey seem to have a
>> more pragmatic, non-religious approach to life.  For example, polls
>> show that far fewer citizens of those countries have a belief in a god
>> or afterlife (I think the figure there is maybe 30-40% or so, as
>> opposed to 60-70% here in the USA).
>These figures can be misleading. For example, even though belief in god 
>is low in Denmark, as is church attendance, about 90% belong to the 
>State Church. From a social psychological standpoint, this indicates 
>such a deep integration of religion into daily life, that the weekly 
>reaffirmation is hardly needed.
>When cloning first became controversial, Denmark passed a law banning 
>it immediately. Somewhat latter, it became apparent that cloning of 
>cells, etc. was obviously a good idea, and the law was modified. 
>Members of the official Ethics Advisory Board make statements about the 
>need to improve the Quality of Life as opposed to increasing the 
>Quantity of Life. When I mentioned cryonic suspension to my MD, who is 
>was willing to work with me on developing a drug regime for life 
>extension, he said it wouldn't be long before a law was passed against 
>cryonics, if it was attempted in Denmark. On the other hand, fetal cord 
>blood is now routinely placed in low temperature suspension upon birth, 
>in order to be available for cancer treatment.

Interesting info. Denmark is an appealing country, but the religious
info you gave is new to me.  At least they react when seeing the
positive benefits of science, though.

>Message #22852
>From: "Paul Pagnato" <>
>References: <>
>Subject: Re: James 22843 & Randy 22844
>Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 17:02:29 -0800

>>But I have no idea how he [Kucinich]  feels about cryonics. Maybe I could 
>>him--I am involved in his campaign as a volunteer here in Houston.....
>What about Howard Dean? He's a doctor, anyone know his position on stem 
>cell and SCNT? He is also the likely winner of the Dems nomination. Bush 
>has no Repooplican (they keep bringing up and trying the same old failed 
>crap) competition.

Not sure about that particular stuff, but he does have Progressive
leanings, and evidenced by his speech yesterday advocating universal

>Message #22854
>From: "David Pizer" <>
>Subject: Which country is cryonics legal.
>Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 20:02:32 -0800

>Someone asked "Which country is cryonics legal in?"        Its legal in the 
United States.

So far, anyway. Except for Michigan and possibly Boca Raton, right?
Not incidentally, those 2 are locations for established and possible
cryonics facilities.....

>Randy's suggestion of Dennis Kucinich as a protector of cryonics is remarkable.
I admire Kucinich >because he is truly a very moral and decent person.  
However, until he decided he wanted to run for >President, he was 
"right-to-life", something they tell me he has now changed positions on.  He was
>also one of the most gifted orators against therapeutic cloning and 
reproductive cloning in the House >of Representatives.

>I often direct media folks his way as "one of the best spokesmen" against 
cloning.  I remember his >searing cry from the floor of the House: "Is human 
life to be the next commodity?"  His allies describe >therapeutic cloning as 
"creating human life to strip mine it for body parts".  Good luck on recruiting 
>Dennis Kucinich!

Well, actually, the main thing is to get Dennis in as President. You
see, he advocates proportional representation, which would allow for a
voice in Congress for all sorts "fringe" disenfranchised blocks of
citizens, such as, for example, life extensionists and genetic
engineering advocates. With proportional representation, we
cryonicists and immortalists could ally with other likeminded citizens
to put into congress people who would STOP the passage of laws
unfriendly to our interests. Under the current "winner takes all"
single member district system, we "fringe" types are screwed, and the
lawmakers are representing only the soccer moms and the Joe Sixpacks
and of course the investor-CEO class.

If Kucinich were voted in, we might someday have the Republican Party,
the Democrat Party, the Libertarian Party, the Hispanic Party, the
African-American Party, the Green Party, and the Life Extensionist
Party. And all would be able to get seats in Congress according to the
proportion of votes received in the election.

>Finally, someone described themselves as being trapped by bioethicists in 
Arizona.  I have a tape >broadcast on C-Span in which a bioethicist named Allen 
Buchanan got an entire meeting upset by >being open-minded and liberated.  I 
have been meaning to contact him.  I have no idea as to where he >stands on 
human cloning and/or cryonics but he is certainly able to "think outside the 
box" and that is >what is necessary to find someone willing to defend either or 
both issues.

Interesting info. We'll all have to keep him in mind.....

The United States of America: If you like low wages, you'll love long hours!

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