X-Message-Number: 23100 From: Subject: Message # 23089 (Mike Perry) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 09:24:13 +0000 In your opinion the U.S. has "soft core" Libertarianism. I agree...VERY, VERY soft core! It does "allow" capitalism. But so does some communist countries. It also "allows" one to retain some profits. I submit capitalism and retaining all of one's profits should be a right...not something the government permits and controls. Again you use the term "radical" Libertarianism. I don't understand what is radical about the ideas outlined by the Libertarian National Committee. I also fail to see how a Libertarian government would decay into anarchy. It would still contain a defense department, a supreme court, probably the C.I.A. and on a local level we would still have the criminal justice system. To descend into anarchy would require an armed revolt by a large sector of the population. That would be a bloody event indeed! I will concede that could happen under any system including the present one, so I fail to see that as a reasonable argument against Libertarianism You seem to defend the present system by pointing out that it prevented Josef Stalin from annexing the U.S. That is the primary (if not only) function of the federal government. Under the libertarians that would remain the primary function. Again, I fail to see that as a reasonable argument against the Libertarian party assuming control over the federal government. You make reference to the "natural way" of people. I tend to agree with you on this point. Most people I know if ask would agree that government should control building decisions, zoning, should provide welfare (just make it "fair"), should require people to attach metal plates to their vehicles and pay extortion before driving on roads, should build and operate schools, roads, fight a war on drugs and prostitution, should provide housing for the poor. I could go on and on. The fact that there are several thousand registered libertarians in the U.S. and in other countries, that there exist in Washington the Cato institute and a large volume of libertarian literature exist by several different authors should suggest that the "natural way" might not be universal. You say things might not work the way libertarians imagine. This cannot be proved but if Thomas Jefferson, etal were returned to life and introduced to our current government, they would probably feel that something went wrong. It could be said that government the way they imagined "didn't work" and I would strongly agree! It was because people with the "natural way" you mentioned learned that they had the power to live off other people's earnings. It is true that Socialism doesn't jibe with human nature, but the system survived in the U.S.S.R. for 70 years and still survives to a greater or lesser degree in most countries. Does the fact that it still exist mean that Socialism "works"? The Federal Government is in your life from the time you lie down on a government approved mattress to the time you awake and take a shit on a government mandated toilet. The fact that you can send these messages without censorship means nothing. You should listen to talk radio from time to time and learn what the feds. have tried. So far they have been defeated but they will NEVER stop trying! They would like nothing better than to monitor everyone's e-mail and the "Patriot Act" i.e. the Orwellian Act has just made that goal a lot easier!! You say if Congress ignores the constitution why people and/or the Libertarian party are not filing lawsuits? Lawsuits have been filed...to defend the first and second amendments. Anytime an attack is made on the first amendment the media and lawyers react with a vengeance. That is why that amendment is pretty much intact. Any time an attack is made on the second amendment the N.R.A., and almost no one else reacts. The reaction also is not as visceral as the reaction to the first amendment. That is why we have severe limitations on "the right to keep and bear arms" and be assured those limitations are going to grow in number. As far as the rest of the constitution, most people have not even read it or give a damn what the Libertarian party says about it. There is no one willing to sue the Feds. over social security, medicare, medicade, H.U.D., dept. of education, D.E.A., A,T.F., F.B.I., I could go on and on. Apparently no one with large sums of money gives a damn about any part of the constitution except the first and second amendments. If I had Bill Gates money I would like to think that I would take a shot at it! You say if coercion was eliminated we would have anarchy. A Libertarian government would not completely eliminate coercion. It would use severe coercion against foreign aggressors and locals when an attempt to violate someone's personal freedom occurred! I would like to see a national L.P. revolution, you would not...we disagree. Have you heard of the Free State Project? If it succeeds in becoming a reality, we will see the Libertarian experiment tried. Best wishes, I will see you Monday Dec. 12th, Jerry Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=23100