X-Message-Number: 23114
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 20:56:42 -0500
Subject: Religious beliefs #23107

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Religious beliefs #23107 seems to "spook" Mike Perry.  He says:
Message #23107
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 01:24:46 -0700
From: Mike Perry <>
Subject: Venturism

>Randy Wicker (#23098) expresses interest in Venturism (and my book), and 
>says he sees cryonics, cloning, and even immortality as "religious 
>beliefs." If "religion" is suitably understood, I think it is reasonable to 
>say that there is indeed a religious dimension to these things--but caution 
>is needed to avoid misunderstandings. Many associate "religion" with 
>(necessary) belief in the supernatural and many in cryonics are concerned 
>lest the "religious" element should cloud judgment as to the quality of the 
>procedures being done. I think these difficulties are real but not 
>insurmountable. More later (now it's getting late).

This is exactly the problem which "drove me out of organized atheism".  When I 
suggested to atheists, especially organized atheists that "atheism was not only 
a religion, but the world's oldest religion" they turned on me with venom and 
vitritude.  I was called 'the atheist priest" etc.

Well, I believe, as I testified to Congress twice, that one's basic beliefs 
about life and death define one's religious beliefs.  I believe/know that when 
one dies, one dies.  It seems so obvious to me.  I don't worry where I was when 
Columbus discovered America and I suspect I won't be here to watch Earth 
colonize Mars.

A "supreme being" has nothing to do with religion.  Beliefs about life and death
are all that matter.  Do those who believe in reincarnation believe in a 
"supreme being"?  Buddhism is called "an atheist religion" by the Pope.

For what it is worth, the Raelain Religion calls itself "an atheist religion".  
In my opinion, cloning, cryonics and immortalism are new religions.  It might 
take some time for those involved to realize it.  I believe they should do so 
quickly because once we lay claim to the mantle of "religious belief" we have 
laid claim to the foundation of the United States of America.

The more "atheistic religions" the better!  If you believe you will find 
"eternal life" or "resurrection" through cloning, cryonics or simply being a 
member of an 'immortalist church' (whether that be one that believes in cryonics
or mummification) you have a right top act on that belief.

The same religious belief that says you have the right to clone yourself also 
guarantees you the right to freeze and re-animate yourself. We have to establish
the right of the living to control what happens to their bodies after death.  
That right does not exist at this time in our society.  When you die in our 
society, your relatives obtain authority over your body.  That is an outrage!!

Randolfe H. Wicker
Founder, Clone Rights United Front www.clonerights.com 
Spokesperson, Reproductive Cloning Network, www.reproductivecloning.net 
Former CEO, Human Cloning Foundation, www.humancloning.org 
Member, The Immortality Institute, www.imminst.org 
201-656-3280 (Mornings)

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