X-Message-Number: 23541 From: "Kitty Antonik Wakfer" <> Subject: Alternatives to Legislation Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 16:28:43 -0700 I received the following private email today which was in response to a private email by Paul which follows: > -----Original Message----- > From: deleted > Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 3:27 PM > To: Paul Antonik Wakfer > Cc: > Subject: Re: Any working with government is "caving" [was: Who really > caved > > > If there is a law on the books that sanctions government force to back > mandatory autopsies, and someone works to get a bill passed that repeals > that law for cryonicists, is that "getting in bed" with government? > > Look at this way: If you don't discuss with government the conditions > which you believe are appropriate vs. inappropriate for police to > come your > door (i.e. if you do absolutely nothing to engage government and educate > them about what you do), then inevitably POLICE WILL COME TO YOUR > DOOR. The > ultimate result of a non-engagement policy is Waco, Texas. A principled > stand perhaps, but with a most unproductive ending. > > ----deleted > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Antonik Wakfer" <> > To: deleted > Cc: "Kitty Antonik Wakfer" <> > Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 12:54 PM > Subject: Any working with government is "caving" [was: Who really caved > > > > Nothing you can say removes the proven fact that getting into bed with > > government is ultimately a disaster and a total loss of integrity for > > the person or company who does so. You cannot beat city hall because > > they have the sanctioned use of force on their side. Until this > > sanctioned use of force is made powerless by sufficient numbers of > > people openly not sanctioning, shrugging, evading, and avoiding using > > whatever means they can, government will grow and ultimately destroy any > > liberties that are left except those which *it* considers necessary to > > feed its needs. > > > > --Paul Wakfer My response follows with the removal of identifying information of particular persons. -----Original Message----- From: Kitty Antonik Wakfer [mailto:] Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 3:50 PM To: deleted Cc: Paul Wakfer Subject: RE: Any working with government is "caving" [was: Who really caved [Deleted], I appreciate your expressed sincerity. What is being left out by you - and unfortunately those who responded on CryoNet in the same manner - is that Alcor and CI had years to encourage the formation of a non-government oversight group. There was, however, very little enthusiasm for the creation of industry standards, and even less recognition that such would provide a likely means of heading off major future government entanglements. I was not active in cryonics during the earliest of these exchanges - but Paul tells me that the subject did arise on CryoNet (not initiated by him) - and even before that in the 80s - and was summarily dismissed by some (jealousies and suspicions the likely major reason) and ignored by the rest . Even last November Paul urgently attempted privately to [deleted, deleted (dropped after the first email due to his expressed lack of interest)], [deleted] and (a bit later) [deleted] to encourage just such a group formation. *Now* we know that an AZ legislative subcommittee was actually well under way at that time to place cryonics under government control. But if Paul's suggestions had been taken up quickly, a standards organization as he envisaged could have been put underway and so shown to the legislators. But for reasons of their own - some of which you may be able to deduce - the two primary individuals ([deleted] and [deleted]) declined to do what would be necessary by them to get the "show on the road". Attached is the first email in a flurry that took place over a 2 week period, most within the initial 4 days. [This will be provided to any who request or published here separately if there is interest in having that done.] Extracted from the email to [deleted] and copied to [deleted] on 11/11/03 at 8:26pm and later copied to [deleted]: >>>>>>>>>> My comments about the organizations and their personnel are pretty ancient history, but if resurrected that would make me *more* suitable not less. You still don't seem to understand what I have in mind. Here is a description of how I see the organization functioning (not necessarily in this exact order) 1) Org gets created. 2) Mission is Cryonics Oversight, Inspection and Certification (COIC) - to ensure the "public" safety, non-fraudulence and acceptability of cryonics and its methods. 3) Scientist/academic/bioethicists (as high profile as possible) get brought onto the advisory and oversight board. Public announcements and press releases. 4) CEO/spokesperson and other officers get appointed. Public announcements and press releases. 5) Standards get created. Information to and from cryonics "industry" during creation, but no "authority" from them 6) CEO and the advisory board members embark on program to sell the media and government agencies in all relevant jurisdictions, that they (COIC) will be keeping cryonics safe for the world and making sure that nothing unacceptable is done. At the same time, this group will be *debunking* all the previous and current horror stories and scare mongering about cryonics by bringing medical and mortuary industry facts to bear on the situation showing that all the things which are done by cryonicists are not really any different than is done by countless other parties and has been always been done and accepted. They will make the point that in this "land of the free and home of the brave", if people wish so spend their money on strange things of their own free choosing with completely informed consent (which COIC requirements will now *ensure*) then they should be free to do so. Sure, it is not for most sane and unwealthy people, but then neither is sky diving, bungee-jumping, mummification, retiree tours and cruises, tourist rocket flights, plastic surgery, plush antiaging spas, and even elaborate funerals and mausoleums (we need some more example here of things which are currently allowed, but which many people think are somewhat scamish and/or are stupid and pointless ways for the aged to spend their money). 7) This process will build bridges to the media and government and get them on *our* side. During this process, once they see the positive effect we are having on the public image of cryonics, all cryonicists and their orgs because of them will see that they really have no choice but to accept our services or the government agencies will almost surely get after them! We will require an open door policy from all cryonics organizations. The only exception will be the identity of their individual members and those in suspension who do not wish to be identified. In summary, I *now* see the entire purpose of this effort being to make cryonics publicly *acceptable*, not popular, that will come later, merely acceptable. Until some activity is acceptable, it cannot possibly become popular or even adopted by any reasonable number of people, and is forever in danger of being outlawed or otherwise censured. Think of opium, abortion, stem cell research, human cloning, homosexuality, bigamy, atheism, home schooling, marijuana usage, flag burning, mega-dose supplements, GM foods, radical life-extension, surrogate mothers, and historically, heart transplants, cremation, racially mixed marriages, contraceptives, alcohol, etc In short, I see a possibility for the right efforts to place cryonics on a far more solid footing than it has yet achieved in 30 years of trying. When we are finished, the Society for Cryobiology ought to be willing to reverse their stand!!! >>>>>>>>>> Paul did not see anything but a small very background role for himself in this urgently proposed Standards group since some in the providing organizations hold such animosity towards him, though as he said above this might actually be a plus in as far as outsiders were concerned. This idea of independent oversight is not capitulation to government but dealing with it in a principled manner, something that has now been lost. This recent flurry of lobbying activity by Alcor (and via its members) is similar to the actions of the grasshopper in the old fable of the Grasshopper and the Ant; Alcor panicked as a result of its own failure to act rationally regarding standards for years. (The same can be said for CI in its own "struggles" with Michigan state government.) I've addressed here what Alcor (and CI separately) could have done to prevent this whole situation years ago - and other independent persons more recently. What I've not gone into here is the separate issue of Alcor (and you) not standing firm on the stated principles of their (your) objection to any need for legislation at all. This more than anything resulted in Paul's condemnation. He can forgive people for being ignorant, procrastinating, cowardly, and many other faults; but he can not forgive people stating principles and then betraying them. Either their "principles" were hype and not truly held, or the principles proclaimed have definitely been betrayed. **Kitty Antonik Wakfer MoreLife for the rational - http://morelife.org Reality based tools for more life in quantity and quality Self-Sovereign Individual Project - http://selfsip.org Rational freedom by self-sovereignty & social contracting PS: I plan to post the above (with identifying information deleted) to CryoNet, as I think others should have a more complete understanding of Paul's many attempts to better the condition of cryonics in spite of the enormous foot-dragging and/or intentional sabotage by many (?most) of those in leadership positions. Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=23541