X-Message-Number: 23541
From: "Kitty Antonik Wakfer" <>
Subject: Alternatives to Legislation
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 16:28:43 -0700

I received the following private email today which was in response to a
private email by Paul which follows:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: deleted
> Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 3:27 PM
> To: Paul Antonik Wakfer
> Cc: 
> Subject: Re: Any working with government is "caving" [was: Who really
> caved
>
>
>     If there is a law on the books that sanctions government force to back
> mandatory autopsies, and someone works to get a bill passed that repeals
> that law for cryonicists, is that "getting in bed" with government?
>
>     Look at this way: If you don't discuss with government the conditions
> which you believe are appropriate vs. inappropriate for police to
> come your
> door (i.e. if you do absolutely nothing to engage government and educate
> them about what you do), then inevitably POLICE WILL COME TO YOUR
> DOOR.  The
> ultimate result of a non-engagement policy is Waco, Texas.  A principled
> stand perhaps, but with a most unproductive ending.
>
> ----deleted

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Antonik Wakfer" <>
> To: deleted
> Cc: "Kitty Antonik Wakfer" <>
> Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 12:54 PM
> Subject: Any working with government is "caving" [was: Who really caved
>
>
> > Nothing you can say removes the proven fact that getting into bed with
> > government is ultimately a disaster and a total loss of integrity for
> > the person or company who does so. You cannot beat city hall because
> > they have the sanctioned use of force on their side. Until this
> > sanctioned use of force is made powerless by sufficient numbers of
> > people openly not sanctioning, shrugging, evading, and avoiding using
> > whatever means they can, government will grow and ultimately destroy any
> > liberties that are left except those which *it* considers necessary to
> > feed its needs.
> >
> > --Paul Wakfer


My response follows with the removal of identifying information of
particular persons.


-----Original Message-----
From: Kitty Antonik Wakfer [mailto:]
Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 3:50 PM
To: deleted
Cc: Paul Wakfer
Subject: RE: Any working with government is "caving" [was: Who really
caved


[Deleted],

I appreciate your expressed sincerity. What is being left out by you - and
unfortunately those who responded on CryoNet in the same manner - is that
Alcor and CI had years to encourage the formation of a non-government
oversight group. There was, however, very little enthusiasm for the creation
of industry standards, and even less recognition that such would provide a
likely means of heading off major future government entanglements. I was not
active in cryonics during the earliest of these exchanges - but Paul tells
me that the subject did arise on CryoNet (not initiated by him) - and even
before that in the 80s - and was summarily dismissed by some (jealousies and
suspicions the likely major reason) and ignored by the rest .

Even last November Paul urgently attempted privately to [deleted, deleted
(dropped after the first email due to his expressed lack of interest)],
[deleted] and (a bit later) [deleted] to encourage just such a group
formation. *Now* we know that an AZ legislative subcommittee was actually
well under way at that time to place cryonics under government control. But
if Paul's suggestions had been taken up quickly, a standards organization as
he envisaged could have been put underway and so shown to the legislators.
But for reasons of their own - some of which you may be able to deduce - the
two primary individuals ([deleted] and [deleted]) declined to do what would
be necessary by them to get the "show on the road".

Attached is the first email in a flurry that took place over a 2 week
period, most within the initial 4 days. [This will be provided to any who
request or published here separately if there is interest in having that
done.]

Extracted from the email to [deleted] and copied to [deleted] on 11/11/03 at
8:26pm and later copied to [deleted]:

>>>>>>>>>>
My comments about the organizations and their personnel are pretty ancient
history, but if resurrected that would make me *more* suitable not less. You
still don't seem to understand what I have in mind. Here is a description of
how I see the organization functioning (not necessarily in this exact order)

1) Org gets created.
2) Mission is Cryonics Oversight, Inspection and Certification (COIC) - to
ensure the "public" safety, non-fraudulence and acceptability of cryonics
and its methods.
3) Scientist/academic/bioethicists (as high profile as possible) get brought
onto the advisory and oversight board. Public announcements and press
releases.
4) CEO/spokesperson and other officers get appointed. Public announcements
and press releases.
5) Standards get created. Information to and from cryonics "industry" during
creation, but no "authority" from them
6) CEO and the advisory board members embark on program to sell the media
and government agencies in all relevant jurisdictions, that they (COIC) will
be keeping cryonics safe for the world and making sure that nothing
unacceptable is done. At the same time, this group will be *debunking* all
the previous and current horror stories and scare mongering about cryonics
by bringing medical and mortuary industry facts to bear on the situation
showing that all the things which are done by cryonicists are not really any
different than is done by countless other parties and has been always been
done and accepted. They will make the point that in this "land of the free
and home of the brave", if people wish so spend their money on strange
things of their own free choosing with completely informed consent (which
COIC requirements will now *ensure*) then they should be free to do so.
Sure, it is not for most sane and unwealthy people, but then neither is sky
diving, bungee-jumping, mummification, retiree tours and cruises, tourist
rocket flights, plastic surgery, plush antiaging spas, and even elaborate
funerals and mausoleums (we need some more example here of things which are
currently allowed, but which many people think are somewhat scamish and/or
are stupid and pointless ways for the aged to spend their money).
7) This process will build bridges to the media and government and get them
on *our* side. During this process, once they see the positive effect we are
having on the public image of cryonics, all cryonicists and their orgs
because of them will see that they really have no choice but to accept our
services or the government agencies will almost surely get after them! We
will require an open door policy from all cryonics organizations. The only
exception will be the identity of their individual members and those in
suspension who do not wish to be identified.

In summary, I *now* see the entire purpose of this effort being to make
cryonics publicly *acceptable*, not popular, that will come later, merely
acceptable. Until some activity is acceptable, it cannot possibly become
popular or even adopted by any reasonable number of people, and is forever
in danger of being outlawed or otherwise censured. Think of opium, abortion,
stem cell research, human cloning, homosexuality, bigamy, atheism, home
schooling, marijuana usage, flag burning, mega-dose supplements, GM foods,
radical life-extension, surrogate mothers, and historically, heart
transplants, cremation, racially mixed marriages, contraceptives, alcohol,
etc

In short, I see a possibility for the right efforts to place cryonics on a
far more solid footing than it has yet achieved in 30 years of trying. When
we are finished, the Society for Cryobiology ought to be willing to reverse
their stand!!!
>>>>>>>>>>


Paul did not see anything but a small very background role for himself in
this urgently proposed Standards group since some in the providing
organizations hold such animosity towards him, though as he said above this
might actually be a plus in as far as outsiders were concerned. This idea of
independent oversight is not capitulation to government but dealing with it
in a principled manner, something that has now been lost. This recent flurry
of lobbying activity by Alcor (and via its members) is similar to the
actions of the grasshopper in the old fable of the Grasshopper and the Ant;
Alcor panicked as a result of its own failure to act rationally regarding
standards for years.  (The same can be said for CI in its own "struggles"
with Michigan state government.)

I've addressed here what Alcor (and CI separately) could have done to
prevent this whole situation years ago - and other independent persons more
recently. What I've not gone into here is the separate issue of Alcor (and
you) not standing firm on the stated principles of their (your) objection to
any need for legislation at all.  This more than anything resulted in Paul's
condemnation. He can forgive people for being ignorant, procrastinating,
cowardly, and many other faults; but he can not forgive people stating
principles and then betraying them.  Either their "principles" were hype and
not truly held, or the principles proclaimed have definitely been betrayed.


**Kitty Antonik Wakfer

MoreLife for the rational - http://morelife.org
Reality based tools for more life in quantity and quality
Self-Sovereign Individual Project - http://selfsip.org
Rational freedom by self-sovereignty & social contracting

PS: I plan to post the above (with identifying information deleted) to
CryoNet, as I think others should have a more complete understanding of
Paul's many attempts to better the condition of cryonics in spite of the
enormous foot-dragging and/or intentional sabotage by many (?most) of those
in leadership positions.

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