X-Message-Number: 23545 From: "Kitty Antonik Wakfer" <> Subject: Cryonics Information Suppression Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 17:16:21 -0700 Some here on CryoNet are also members of ConsideringCryonics Yahoo - stated to be "for anyone considering cryonics". Those members of CCYahoo who are long past the "considering" stage are there I presume to provide information to those who are still investigating the idea of cryonics. That there will be differences of opinion between such "old-timers" should be expected and allowed if the posters do so while addressing the substance of the issues and refrain from ad hominems. A poster should always (on any list) clearly state *why* he thinks a view is wrong, illogical, disruptive, counterproductive, meaningless, etc. etc. To just throw out such statements - and worse - is valueless in itself because it does not show the reader how the writer reached that conclusion or why such a conclusion is valid. The owner of CCYahoo, Sarah Fitz-Claridge, has this afternoon (3/2/04) issued an "LIST OWNERS NOTICE" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ConsideringCryonics/message/462 which starts off quite reasonably in its request for adherence to guidelines, assurance that messages that meet them will be posted and urging that members whose messages do not appear write her, including a copy of the post. "Sometimes messages disappear for no apparent reason, and of course we'd hate to miss your wonderful posts!" This introduction, however, is highly suspect by me since Paul Wakfer had posted a message some 14 hours previously that never appeared, despite the fact that 2 others from a frequent poster had been. In fact Paul had reposted approximately 45 minutes prior to that owner message, with a copy sent to the poster to whom he was responding (as he had his original reply), noting at the top that it was a resend in case of a "discard". While Sarah F-C prohibits "meta-discussion" (item 2) in her guidelines, she does not appear to understand fully the meaning of the word "meta". A "meta" discussion about the list would be discussion about the details of the list itself; she does include this in the first of the sub items "- this list or its management and moderation" , but then immediately includes another 4 items (and "etc.") These last I contend more appropriately belong with her 3rd item which begins "Please at least TRY to post as though you are a half-decent human being." and concludes "People may be misguided but if so, it should be easy to explain calmly and rationally how their ideas are mistaken rather than going in for the kill, Terminator style." Sarah F-C goes on to close her message in an attempt to be witty encouraging all not to post if grumpy, "Wait until you feel calm. If you never feel calm, see a shrink." Nothing Sarah C-F wrote would be objectionable in my view - I'd even pass over her misuse of "meta" - except for the fact that she is not allowing Paul to respond to a message in reply to an earlier one of his. I additionally object that her message is an innuendo that Paul's post, which she has not approved - no rejection notice was received, it has just failed to appear - falls under the "Terminator style" rather than one that is calm and rational. Paul has not been at all angry since reading the message issued by Alcor on Thursday 2/26; in fact he has actually been enjoying his ability to rationally argue his points, as opposed to the mere hurling of pejoratives by many of the others who disagree with him. From the initial portion of the message by Paul not posted at CCYahoo: > To Paul Wakfer: > > Perhaps the most fruitful line of inquiry for you at this > point is to consider why it is that every venture in > cryonics, in which you have been involved, seems to prompt > you to make the same general kinds of complaints, in which > you become angry with all other participants for being stupid > and short sighted. First of all, I am not angry and haven't been since the initial approximately five minutes of "Humph!" when I read Alcor's capitulating announcement dressed up as a victory claim (as if that is ever possible with government) and even heaped with laudatory statements for the various legislators involved who if they weren't so cowardly (all of them) would be out there waving guns and using the multitude of forceful methods of their enforcers (policing agents). I am not angry because I had no reason to expect anything different. However, I am more resolute than I have ever been before, and during the last year of developing the Self-Sovereign Individual Project, I have become more deeply certain of my position and my logical thinking and analysis than ever before. No. I am not "angry with all other participants for being stupid and short sighted", but that is not going to stop me from stating that and showing when they are. As Kitty wrote in a post to this group and on CryoNet I "can forgive people for being ignorant, procrastinating, cowardly, and many other faults; but [I] can not forgive people stating principles and then betraying them. Either their "principles" were hype and not truly held, or the principles proclaimed have definitely been betrayed." --------------- For those wanting to read Paul's entire reply to message #458 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ConsideringCryonics/message/458 I will glad to provide a forwarding. So some here might ask why am I not just simply posting this to ConcerningCryonics Yahoo and be done with it. The answer is that since that would be "meta-discussion" and prohibited by Sarah C-F's guidelines, my message would not be posted. Therefore, the only way to make it known that information and discussion about cryonics providers and the relationship of cryonics to government agencies - information that those "considering cryonics" should be aware of - will be actively limited on that Yahoo group is to publicize this occurrence elsewhere on the Web. **Kitty Antonik Wakfer MoreLife for the rational - http://morelife.org Reality based tools for more life in quantity and quality Self-Sovereign Individual Project - http://selfsip.org Rational freedom by self-sovereignty & social contracting Content-Type: text/html; [ AUTOMATICALLY SKIPPING HTML ENCODING! ] Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=23545