X-Message-Number: 23545
From: "Kitty Antonik Wakfer" <>
Subject: Cryonics Information Suppression
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 17:16:21 -0700


Some here on CryoNet are also members of ConsideringCryonics Yahoo - stated to 
be "for anyone considering cryonics".

Those members of CCYahoo who are long past the "considering" stage are there I 
presume to provide information to those

who are still investigating the idea of cryonics. That there will be differences
of opinion between such "old-timers"

should be expected and allowed if the posters do so while addressing the 
substance of the issues and refrain from ad

hominems. A poster should always (on any list) clearly state *why* he thinks a 
view is wrong, illogical, disruptive,

counterproductive, meaningless, etc. etc. To just throw out such statements - 
and worse - is valueless in itself because

it does not show the reader how the writer reached that conclusion or why such a
conclusion is valid.


The owner of CCYahoo, Sarah Fitz-Claridge, has this afternoon (3/2/04) issued an
"LIST OWNERS NOTICE"

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ConsideringCryonics/message/462 which starts off 
quite reasonably in its request for

adherence to guidelines, assurance that messages that meet them will be posted 
and urging that members whose messages do

not appear write her, including a copy of the post. "Sometimes messages 
disappear for no apparent reason, and of course

we'd hate to miss your wonderful posts!"  This introduction, however, is highly 
suspect by me since Paul Wakfer had

posted a message some 14 hours previously that never appeared, despite the fact 
that 2 others from a frequent poster had

been. In fact Paul had reposted approximately 45 minutes prior to that owner 
message, with a copy sent to the poster to

whom he was responding (as he had his original reply), noting at the top that it
was a resend in case of a "discard".


While Sarah F-C prohibits "meta-discussion" (item 2) in her guidelines, she does
not appear to understand fully the

meaning of the word "meta". A "meta" discussion about the list would be 
discussion about the details of the list itself;

she does include this in the first of the sub items "- this list or its 
management and moderation" , but then

immediately includes another 4 items (and "etc.") These last I contend more 
appropriately belong with her 3rd item which

begins "Please at least TRY to post as though you are a half-decent human 
being." and concludes "People may be misguided

but if so, it should be easy to explain calmly and rationally how their ideas 
are mistaken rather than going in for the
kill, Terminator style."


Sarah F-C goes on to close her message in an attempt to be witty encouraging all
not to post if grumpy, "Wait until you
feel calm. If you never feel calm, see a shrink."


Nothing Sarah C-F wrote would be objectionable in my view - I'd even pass over 
her misuse of "meta" - except for the

fact that she is not allowing Paul to respond to a message in reply to an 
earlier one of his. I additionally object that

her message is an innuendo that Paul's post, which she has not approved - no 
rejection notice was received, it has just

failed to appear - falls under the "Terminator style" rather than one that is 
calm and rational. Paul has not been at

all angry since reading the message issued by Alcor on Thursday 2/26; in fact he
has actually been enjoying his ability

to rationally argue his points, as opposed to the mere hurling of pejoratives by
many of the others who disagree with
him. From the initial portion of the message by Paul not posted at CCYahoo:
> To Paul Wakfer:
>
> Perhaps the most fruitful line of inquiry for you at this
> point is to consider why it is that every venture in
> cryonics, in which you have been involved, seems to prompt
> you to make the same general kinds of complaints, in which
> you become angry with all other participants for being stupid
> and short sighted.

First of all, I am not angry and haven't been since the initial
approximately five minutes of "Humph!" when I read Alcor's capitulating
announcement dressed up as a victory claim (as if that is ever possible
with government) and even heaped with laudatory statements for the
various legislators involved who if they weren't so cowardly (all of
them) would be out there waving guns and using the multitude of forceful
methods of their enforcers (policing agents). I am not angry because I
had no reason to expect anything different. However, I am more resolute
than I have ever been before, and during the last year of developing the
Self-Sovereign Individual Project, I have become more deeply certain of
my position and my logical thinking and analysis than ever before.

No. I am not "angry with all other participants for being stupid and
short sighted", but that is not going to stop me from stating that and
showing when they are. As Kitty wrote in a post to this group and on
CryoNet I "can forgive people for being ignorant, procrastinating,
cowardly, and many other faults; but [I] can not forgive people stating
principles and then betraying them. Either their "principles" were hype
and not truly held, or the principles proclaimed have definitely been
betrayed."
---------------
For those wanting to read Paul's entire reply to message #458

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ConsideringCryonics/message/458  I will glad to 
provide a forwarding.


So some here might ask why am I not just simply posting this to 
ConcerningCryonics Yahoo and be done with it. The answer

is that since that would be "meta-discussion" and prohibited by Sarah C-F's 
guidelines, my message would not be posted.

Therefore, the only way to make it known that information and discussion about 
cryonics providers and the relationship

of cryonics to government agencies - information that those "considering 
cryonics" should be aware of - will be actively

limited on that Yahoo group is to publicize this occurrence elsewhere on the 
Web.

**Kitty Antonik Wakfer

MoreLife for the rational - http://morelife.org
Reality based tools for more life in quantity and quality
Self-Sovereign Individual Project - http://selfsip.org
Rational freedom by self-sovereignty & social contracting


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