X-Message-Number: 23641 From: "Kitty Antonik Wakfer" <> Subject: RE: Correction Warranted in #23607 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 00:04:02 -0700 Note: My original title for this message used the word "warranted" not "wanted". However the change was made, I have now reversed it in order to prevent distortion of my intent. > Message #23615 > Subject: Re: Correction Wanted in #23607 > From: Aubrey de Grey <> > Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 12:53:06 +0000 > > Kitty Antonik Wakfer wrote, after a curious failure to check her facts > with anyone who would know them: There has been no "curious failure" on my part to check facts with "anyone who would know them". As I show below, anyone "who would know them", except Aubrey de Grey, appears to know many of the "facts" incorrectly. > > > While Aubrey de Grey does have a Ph.D., it is in the computer field, as > > Aubrey himself acknowledges in his own bio linked from Extropy Institute > > http://www.gen.cam.ac.uk/sens/AdGbio.htm > > My Ph.D. is entirely for my work in biogerontology. My apologies to Aubrey de Grey that his Ph.D. is for work in biogerontology only received in 2000. It was Paul's understanding from their internet and email discussions, and when Aubrey made the request for an introduction to Saul Kent in 1997, that he at that time had a Ph.D. in computer science but was pursuing his main interests in biogerontology. (It was Paul's impression at the time, that the somewhat "lowly" position (for a Ph.D. in computer science) Aubrey held at Cambridge as Drosophila database programmer/maintainer was as an "in" to the field of biology and biogerontology, in which he initially had little formal training.) Aubrey's own bio (where no dates or subjects are given for his degrees) and the fact that he worked in the computer field for several years before his association with the Department of Genetics at Cambridge makes this impression of advanced degrees in computer science (possibly even a Ph.D.) quite understandable to a reader: "As a scientist with a training in an engineering discipline (computer science),.." http://www.gen.cam.ac.uk/sens/AdGbio.htm On a number of occasions in various locations on the Internet, Aubrey has pointed out his background in computer science and that even others could contribute in the field of biogerontology, having entered it from other disciplines. Just a few examples: "There are plenty of ways for people to get involved in the development of healthy life extension medicine....If you're an engineer, computer scientist or other technical professional, learn some biology. I started out by making well-received contributions to biogerontology after reading the literature for a few months. Perhaps I was lucky, but it is also the case that scientists in any given field benefit from different perspectives, training and mindsets." http://www.longevitymeme.org/articles/printarticle.cfm?article_id=15 "My own background is in computer science,.." http://groups.google.com/groups?q=engineering+group:sci.life-extension+autho r:de+author:Grey&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&newwindow=1&safe=off&as_drrb=b& as_mind=12&as_minm=5&as_miny=1996&as_maxd=15&as_maxm=5&as_maxy=2004&selm=8qe 1ve%241pv%241%40pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk&rnum=2 "I, like you, have a background in a mathematical discipline (computer science) and understand the value of precise definitions of terms." http://groups.google.com/groups?q=background+group:sci.life-extension+author :de+author:Grey&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&newwindow=1&safe=off&as_drrb=b&a s_mind=12&as_minm=5&as_miny=1996&as_maxd=15&as_maxm=5&as_maxy=2004&selm=afrt sn%247bh%241%40pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk&rnum=6 Statements similar to the above - that movement from one field to another can be done and is indeed quite beneficial to one's perspective - have been made by me (and Paul) many times. (I'm in my 3rd career after 13 and 16 years in nursing and engineering respectively with study years between the two.) The point is not so much what Aubrey de Grey's Ph.D. is in - I had considered it to his credit that he was self-educated in biology, demonstrating a sense of educational independence - but rather how he and some others have used "credentials" in a misleading manner. > I received it in > 2000, for the work discussed in my first two published papers (BioEssays > 19:161 and J. Anti-Aging Medicine 1:53) and my book (The Mitochondrial > Free Radical Theory of Aging"). I have re-read my bio page and can see > no statement there suggesting otherwise. That is correct, only because Aubrey's bio page - sitting in the subdirectory for SENS (Strategies for Engineered Negligible Senescence) which he created (to his credit), not an official University of Cambridge staff biography - does not state anything about the subject matter of his Ph.D. or any other of his degrees. http://www.gen.cam.ac.uk/sens/AdGbio.htm > > > the "work" that Aubrey describes in his bio and for which he is well > > known on sci.life-extension and in the biogerontological scientific > > community is not what Cambridge University employs him to perform. > > This is quite correct and I an not aware of any suggestions to the > contrary. What is described by Aubrey in his SENS bio easily leads the reader to assume that his "work" is what he does as an employee of Cambridge University, whereas, by his own admission now, he is one of a number of "key computer staff" employed by Cambridge. That his "work" is what he does *for* Cambridge is also implied in the references to him by others, many of whom are likely only using this self-bio as their source. He has been listed online as a "computer associate" in the FlyBase Group at Cambridge since at least 1997 (and he describes himself (see CV below) as employed by the Department of Genetics there since 1992), unchanged since then receiving his Ph.D., as he corrects me, in 2000. "FlyBase is a database of genetic and molecular data concerning Drosophila. FlyBase is maintained as a relational database (in Sybase) and is made available as html documents and flat files." from: http://nar.oupjournals.org/cgi/content/full/25/1/63 Numerous places on the Internet list Aubrey as a research associate at Cambridge University; some examples: http://www.alcor.org/AboutAlcor/meetsciadvboard.html http://www.maxlife.org/degrey.htm http://www.kronosinstitute.org/scientific/Biographies/biography-deGrey.html http://www.antiageing2004.com/conf/aubrey.php While a fewer number refer to Aubrey as a professor at Cambridge, the NY Times even referred to him as "a geneticist at the University of Cambridge" http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/01/arts/01AGE.html?ex=1079499600&en=99d581f2b 04ffc06&ei=5070 since then being picked up and used by other sites. Only at the University of Cambridge itself, and the CV below, have I found him listed as a "computer associate" in the Flybase Group in the Department of Genetics. The inclusion of a complete curriculum vitae (CV) by Aubrey de Grey, linkable from his SENS bio, would make the specific facts of his education and his employment history (degree subjects/positions and dates) clear to anyone wanting the details. It would then not be necessary for me to request of him (or "anyone who would know them"?) to verify the statements he or others have written. A CV has been now been located in a .pdf for an upcoming conference. It is only here that some of the details are finally made clear - a failing by Aubrey and others up to this time. http://www.antiageing2004.com/pdf/Aubrey_long_CV.pdf However, even this more complete description fails to provide the detail of what subject was related to each degree as has become standard, even when briefly describing the academic credentials of members of scientific advisory boards. (For an example see: http://www.alcor.org/AboutAlcor/meetsciadvboard.html where for every member of the board, *except* Aubrey, the subject matter of each degree is listed). <snip> > > He is also not on the faculty at Cambridge and therefore not a professor. > > This is quite correct; <snip> > I very frequently correct > descriptions of me as a professor in the media and online and welcome any > others' efforts to do the same .... so long as they are not embedded in > factually incorrect messages. This last could easily be construed as inferring that my effort to correct a misuse of titles and positions for Aubrey was in fact "embedded in [a] factually incorrect message", despite his twist of the sentence. Once again, my apologies for the error regarding Aubrey's Ph.D. thesis subject and date, but the essence of my message was *not* incorrect. Aubrey de Grey is an independent biogerontologist while employed as a computer associate in the FlyBase Group at Cambridge, rather than a biogerontologist for, or even at, Cambridge University. Corrections of erroneous titles and positions should be made by Aubrey and "anyone who would know them" whenever and wherever they are found to occur. Better yet, the facts should be correctly, and unambiguously, given at the outset of an interview or in conference material. Even moreso, the failure to correct erroneous use of titles in direct online (and in-person) communication with others is highly questionable. Such a correction was not done, for instance, by Aubrey in his response to at least this posted message in 1997 some 3 years before his Ph.D. was awarded: http://www.bioessays.demon.co.uk/1997/bio1233.htm (I suggest that Aubrey properly should have made it clear at the outset in his reply that he was not yet deserving of the title "Dr. de Grey", rather than let the writer, himself a Biology Faculty member at a university in Israel, continue under a misunderstanding.) This is not to infer that Aubrey is the only person in life-extension (including cryonics) circles who has failed to correct the misuse of a title used by another regarding himself. > > On the other hand: > > > http://www.methuselahfoundation.org/about.asp#Administrators > > lists Aubrey but also incorrectly: "Aubrey de Grey, > > the main architect of the Methuselah > > Mouse Prize structure, is a biologist and computer scientist at the > > Department of Genetics, University of Cambridge, UK..." He is neither a > > biologist nor a computer scientist *for* the Department of > > Genetics at the University of Cambridge as shown above. > > I am having trouble seeing how the second sentence (which is incorrect re > the computer scientist part, but I digress) contradicts the description > of me that you quote. Perhaps I am being dim, or perhaps I am sensing, > dare I say it, hype. As I wrote after the above sentence (and Aubrey has chosen to omit): "While he has a Ph.D. in computer science [now acknowledged to be incorrect], technically he is not a computer "scientist" because he does not do scientific research about computer software or hardware. (He is strictly a computer user.) Once again, "[h]is major research interests" on which he does literature research and publishes are activities outside, in addition to and separate from the ones for which the University of Cambridge employs him." So therefore it does appear that Aubrey is being "dim". It is regrettable that Aubrey thinks that by attempting to set straight the record on his education and his paid position at Cambridge University that I am creating "hype" (synonymous with puffery). The only "hype" that is occurring is the misleading impression given that Aubrey's independent work in biogerontology, for which he is deservedly well known in anti-aging circles, is what the prestigious University of Cambridge is paying him to do. This is not the case as he acknowledges above. For that matter, since Aubrey's position at Cambridge is as a computer user and programmer to develop and maintain the Drosophila database, even the term computer scientist is misleading because it implies that he researches and develops computer hardware and or software. However, I again stress that *none* of this is to denigrate the very important work that Aubrey has done within the field of biogerontology, both before and after getting his Ph.D. In summary, the facts are what should be given by everyone - not statements that are misleading in what they *do* and *do not* say, conveying an inflated aura of credentials and/or authority. In the effort to promote life-extension/anti-aging (including cryonics) as a currently viable area of study for application to humans - an idea deemed nonsensical (at the least) by the majority of people and as a fraud by many others - it is essential that individuals, especially those in prominence, should be forthright in their statements, including descriptions of themselves and others, even to the point of possibly erring on the side of understatement. To do otherwise is *not* providing fully informed consent to those who would see these efforts as worthwhile and seek to support (financially or otherwise) and/or obtain the resulting measures. In addition, to not be scrupulously honest in *all* their information puts the truthful and factual statements made by prominent promoters in question by everyone, and especially by those who would seek to prevent voluntary transactions between individuals at any point in the anti-aging/life-extension efforts. **Kitty Antonik Wakfer MoreLife for the rational - http://morelife.org Reality based tools for more life in quantity and quality Self-Sovereign Individual Project - http://selfsip.org Rational freedom by self-sovereignty & social contracting Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=23641