X-Message-Number: 23725
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 07:47:53 -0800
Subject: Re: Alcor/FDGD
From: Kennita Watson <>

> Scott Badger <> wrote:
> Kennita wrote:
> "That may be true, but if so, I can't say that Alcor
> or any of the other cryonics organizations has done
> much to convince me that they have perfected said
> control or said presentation.
> Not that this will help, but a friend to whom I
> explained some of this tonight said "Nothing you do
> could be any worse than the Ted Williams jokes on Jay
> Leno -- go for it!".  So much for message control :-)"
> "Not that this will help" is exactly right. Your
> friend's opinion is not helpful as far as I can tell,
> but the fact that you include it in your message
> communicates that for you it has somehow reinforced
> your position. Is your friend part of the cryonics
> community?

No, which I think makes it more valid, not less -- we want
to bring people into the cryonics community who are on its
fringes.  It does no good for us to preach to the choir.

I have brought up the Frozen Dead Guy Days in person with
people who are signed up, with people who are interested in
signing up but aren't yet, with people who know about
cryonics but aren't really into it right now, and with
people who started at "Cryonics?  What's that?".  *All* of
them thought that going was a good idea.
> Kennita, I don't even have a strong stand on whether
> you should go or not, but that has no longer become
> the issue in my mind. I understand what a rugged
> individualistic libertarian type personality you have,
> and I respect your right to do whatever... as  long as
> it doesn't harm others in your community. You're
> ignoring the wishes of about 90% of the community that
> has spoken up so far from what I can tell... a
> slightly better sampling than your n of 1 poll.

90%?  I don't think so...
I've gone through all the Cryonets since the topic came up (3/13/04).
The opinions re me (not necessarily Alcor officially) going to FDGD
seem to shake out like this:

6 AGAINST: Charles Platt, Fred Moulton, Billy H. Seidel (lean 
      Eric (Transoniq), Paul Pagnato, Kurt <>

5 FOR: Kennita Watson, Trygve Bauge, David Pizer, Rudi Hoffman,
       (presumed from subject line)

5 Noncommittal:  Tim Freeman, Scott Badger, Stephen J. Van Sickle (lean 
      Robert Ettinger (lean FOR?), Keith Henson (lean FOR?)

3 Unclear (to me):  John de Rivaz, Basie, Mike Perry

I apologize if I got anyone's category wrong:  feel free to correct
me in private email.  I'll post a corrected list when I've gotten
some responses.  Anyone who would like to check in as FOR, AGAINST,
or Noncommittal can also send me email (checking in as Unclear is
No Fair :-) ) .

"n of 1"?
> Have you called ALCOR and CI to ask their PR people if
> they think this would be a good idea? What's their
> position?

I haven't asked, because their PR people got us into what
I consider a poor PR position.  When I've done more work,
and put together at least the bare bones of a plan in a
coherent form, I'll present it to them and see what they
think.  Also, I have presumed that someone from Alcor
reads this forum and will speak up in their own good time.
It's not like there's a time crunch; we have 11 months and
two or three weeks.  Perhaps they're withholding judgment
till there's a more concrete plan.  Maybe they're hoping
it will just quietly go away.  Whatever.  I press on.
> When I wrote to the legislators protesting Stump's
> bill, I received a reply from Stump telling me how
> naive I was; how uncritically I was accepting ALCOR's
> argument that it was a bad bill. I immediately drafted
> a reply, but first ran it past ALCOR who asked me not
> to send the reply (it wasn't caustic, I just told
> Stump that if he thought I was so uncritical that he
> should provide me with his counter-arguments to the
> talking points ALCOR had presented).
> I did this out of courtesy and respect to ALCOR and to
> my fellow cryonicists.

Courtesy and respect do not require that you do what
people ask, simply that you consider their requests.
Note that Alcor has been dealing with Stump, and may be in
active negotiations with him that could be derailed by your
comments.  In any case, politics is right up their alley.
Incidentally, did Alcor say why they didn't want you to send
the letter?  You could also be uncritically accepting
Alcor's contention that you shouldn't send the letter.
Was there any negotiation -- did you ask about things you
could change in the letter to make it acceptable?

 From what I can tell, Alcor has gotten gun-shy over their
recent media/political problems, and even more conservative
than before.

>  You've always seemed such a
> well-reasoned person. I find it hard to understand why
> you have become so defensive and firm in your position
> here. Please tell us how it is that you are better
> informed and more capable than the cryonics
> organizations in which we place our trust and in the
> general consensus of your peers.
I am firm, because I am determined and feel that needs to
be communicated in no uncertain terms.  Defensive seems to
me quite reasonable, because I am under attack.  However,
your point is well taken, in that more aikido-like tactics
might be more effective in the long run.  They are harder,

I trust Alcor to perform competent, state-of-the-art cryonic
suspensions, and to jump through necessary legal and
logistical hoops to keep their patients in liquid nitrogen
until such time as they can be revived.  They seem to have
been doing a fine job of that so far, so I have no reason
to doubt them.  However, in my opinion their record on
getting the message about cryonics out to the general public
has been, in a word, abysmal.  I feel that the general
public's acceptance of cryonics is fully as important to the
survival of Alcor (and thus, potentially, of myself) as the
acceptance of the legal, political, and scientific
communities, and I frankly don't trust Alcor's judgment in
that arena, based on results.  As far as the "general
consensus", there doesn't seem to be one.  And even if there
were, I would still go, though my presence there would
probably look a lot different.

I recall once when I was running for office and wanted to
march in the SF Gay Pride Parade.  The local Libertarian
Party said "We can't do it; we don't have money for a float;
we don't have enough people for a contingent; we don't
have enough money in the budget; etc.".  Peh.  In the end,
nothing was done, and my friend Brian and I crashed the
parade; I walked and waved, and he walked beside me in a
sandwich board with my name and slogan on it.  We were
quite well-received, as Libertarian candidates go :-) .

I'll go it alone if I have to, with or without any group's
sanction, but a bunch more people are going to know what
real cryonics is about by the end of the 2005 Frozen Dead
Guy Days.  I do, of course, welcome support and assistance.

Live long and prosper,
Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery;
none but ourselves can free our minds.
           -- Bob Marley, "Redemption Song"

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