X-Message-Number: 23725 Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2004 07:47:53 -0800 Subject: Re: Alcor/FDGD From: Kennita Watson <> > Scott Badger <> wrote: > > Kennita wrote: > > "That may be true, but if so, I can't say that Alcor > or any of the other cryonics organizations has done > much to convince me that they have perfected said > control or said presentation. > Not that this will help, but a friend to whom I > explained some of this tonight said "Nothing you do > could be any worse than the Ted Williams jokes on Jay > Leno -- go for it!". So much for message control :-)" > > "Not that this will help" is exactly right. Your > friend's opinion is not helpful as far as I can tell, > but the fact that you include it in your message > communicates that for you it has somehow reinforced > your position. Is your friend part of the cryonics > community? No, which I think makes it more valid, not less -- we want to bring people into the cryonics community who are on its fringes. It does no good for us to preach to the choir. I have brought up the Frozen Dead Guy Days in person with people who are signed up, with people who are interested in signing up but aren't yet, with people who know about cryonics but aren't really into it right now, and with people who started at "Cryonics? What's that?". *All* of them thought that going was a good idea. > > Kennita, I don't even have a strong stand on whether > you should go or not, but that has no longer become > the issue in my mind. I understand what a rugged > individualistic libertarian type personality you have, > and I respect your right to do whatever... as long as > it doesn't harm others in your community. You're > ignoring the wishes of about 90% of the community that > has spoken up so far from what I can tell... a > slightly better sampling than your n of 1 poll. 90%? I don't think so... <...> I've gone through all the Cryonets since the topic came up (3/13/04). The opinions re me (not necessarily Alcor officially) going to FDGD seem to shake out like this: 6 AGAINST: Charles Platt, Fred Moulton, Billy H. Seidel (lean Noncommittal?), Eric (Transoniq), Paul Pagnato, Kurt <> 5 FOR: Kennita Watson, Trygve Bauge, David Pizer, Rudi Hoffman, (presumed from subject line) 5 Noncommittal: Tim Freeman, Scott Badger, Stephen J. Van Sickle (lean FOR?), Robert Ettinger (lean FOR?), Keith Henson (lean FOR?) 3 Unclear (to me): John de Rivaz, Basie, Mike Perry I apologize if I got anyone's category wrong: feel free to correct me in private email. I'll post a corrected list when I've gotten some responses. Anyone who would like to check in as FOR, AGAINST, or Noncommittal can also send me email (checking in as Unclear is No Fair :-) ) . "n of 1"? > > Have you called ALCOR and CI to ask their PR people if > they think this would be a good idea? What's their > position? I haven't asked, because their PR people got us into what I consider a poor PR position. When I've done more work, and put together at least the bare bones of a plan in a coherent form, I'll present it to them and see what they think. Also, I have presumed that someone from Alcor reads this forum and will speak up in their own good time. It's not like there's a time crunch; we have 11 months and two or three weeks. Perhaps they're withholding judgment till there's a more concrete plan. Maybe they're hoping it will just quietly go away. Whatever. I press on. > > When I wrote to the legislators protesting Stump's > bill, I received a reply from Stump telling me how > naive I was; how uncritically I was accepting ALCOR's > argument that it was a bad bill. I immediately drafted > a reply, but first ran it past ALCOR who asked me not > to send the reply (it wasn't caustic, I just told > Stump that if he thought I was so uncritical that he > should provide me with his counter-arguments to the > talking points ALCOR had presented). > > I did this out of courtesy and respect to ALCOR and to > my fellow cryonicists. Courtesy and respect do not require that you do what people ask, simply that you consider their requests. Note that Alcor has been dealing with Stump, and may be in active negotiations with him that could be derailed by your comments. In any case, politics is right up their alley. Incidentally, did Alcor say why they didn't want you to send the letter? You could also be uncritically accepting Alcor's contention that you shouldn't send the letter. Was there any negotiation -- did you ask about things you could change in the letter to make it acceptable? From what I can tell, Alcor has gotten gun-shy over their recent media/political problems, and even more conservative than before. > You've always seemed such a > well-reasoned person. I find it hard to understand why > you have become so defensive and firm in your position > here. Please tell us how it is that you are better > informed and more capable than the cryonics > organizations in which we place our trust and in the > general consensus of your peers. > I am firm, because I am determined and feel that needs to be communicated in no uncertain terms. Defensive seems to me quite reasonable, because I am under attack. However, your point is well taken, in that more aikido-like tactics might be more effective in the long run. They are harder, though. I trust Alcor to perform competent, state-of-the-art cryonic suspensions, and to jump through necessary legal and logistical hoops to keep their patients in liquid nitrogen until such time as they can be revived. They seem to have been doing a fine job of that so far, so I have no reason to doubt them. However, in my opinion their record on getting the message about cryonics out to the general public has been, in a word, abysmal. I feel that the general public's acceptance of cryonics is fully as important to the survival of Alcor (and thus, potentially, of myself) as the acceptance of the legal, political, and scientific communities, and I frankly don't trust Alcor's judgment in that arena, based on results. As far as the "general consensus", there doesn't seem to be one. And even if there were, I would still go, though my presence there would probably look a lot different. I recall once when I was running for office and wanted to march in the SF Gay Pride Parade. The local Libertarian Party said "We can't do it; we don't have money for a float; we don't have enough people for a contingent; we don't have enough money in the budget; etc.". Peh. In the end, nothing was done, and my friend Brian and I crashed the parade; I walked and waved, and he walked beside me in a sandwich board with my name and slogan on it. We were quite well-received, as Libertarian candidates go :-) . I'll go it alone if I have to, with or without any group's sanction, but a bunch more people are going to know what real cryonics is about by the end of the 2005 Frozen Dead Guy Days. I do, of course, welcome support and assistance. Live long and prosper, Kennita -- Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery; none but ourselves can free our minds. -- Bob Marley, "Redemption Song" Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=23725