X-Message-Number: 23912
From: "michaelprice" <>
References: <>
Subject: Frame Over, Man, Frame Over!
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 07:32:21 +0100

Peter Merel:
>>> there is no necessary reason to think physical infinities exist.
>> Except for the infrared divergences of quantum electrodynamics,
>> which imply that the finite number of photons observed with our
>> insensitive detectors are a subset of an infinite (aleph-null) number
>> of soft, but real, photons actually emitted.
>> But we've discussed this before.
> Yes, I questioned the necessity of the theoretical frame. You insisted
> on the reality of its consequents. So I gave up. FWIW I find the
> situation with infinite photons reminiscent of the frame problems to do
> with phlogiston in the 18th century and epicycles in the 16th. We 
> know that QM and GR aren't mutually consistent; this and the plague 
> of infinities are obvious symptoms. God doesn't renormalize.

Obvious?  Let's wait for the theory of everything before
we jump to conclusions.

> And once more, for those who insist Goedel's result is significant,
> I remind them that a sentence undecidable in one formal system can
> be made decidable by expanding the formal system, which certainly
> shows that the problem is in the particular system.

No, the "problem" is general to all formal systems above a minimum level 
of complexity.  By expanding the formal system to "axiomatise away" 
some undecidables more undecidable propositions are created.
There is no escape from Goedel's result.

Michael C Price

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