X-Message-Number: 25266
Date: Sat, 11 Dec 2004 07:53:36 -0500
From: Thomas Donaldson <>
Subject: CryoNet #25258 - #25265

Hi everyone!

So after a lapse I'm still in the position of trying to get RBR to
argue EXPLICITLY for his beliefs on identity, rather than simply
assert them. (I will add parenthetically to Bob Ettinger that no,
even our behavior in space and time --- or spacetime --- isn't 
so simple and obvious as you claim).

Much like Scott Badger, I was asking for RBR to justify his claims
about continuing a QE versus formation of a new one. Sure, if someone
(or even myself) makes a copy of me, that copy will very soon after
become a new version, with its own QE. But that fails to answer the
question I asked: if I am turned into a detailed record --- detailed
enough that I could be recreated from it in every testable respect, 
and then later that record is used to recreate me as specified, 
does that mean that the recreated QE was different or the same? 
Note here that whatever physical structures in my brain created
my QE, the very same physical structures would first be recorded
and then used to recreate my (?) QE.

And again, just what is it about our brains that means that sleep
does not recreate our QE every night? We would not recognize any 
difference when we (?) woke up in the morning: same memories, same
person. Is there any way at all we could tell that our own QE had
been recreated? For that matter, is there any way ANYONE could
answer that question? If you don't like sleep because it seems
simple and nondestructive, try first answering the question if we had 
been in a coma.... and from there, try answering it for cryonic
suspension by freezing, and from there, restoration from an exact
recorded copy as I stated above.

As I've said before, the extreme cases such as recreation of me
from a very detailed record aren't likely to be at all possible
for quite some time. We've all experienced sleep, and I would
not be surprised if a few readers of Cryonet had experienced a
coma. My questions still stand unanswered. Just why is it that
our QE remains the same in some circumstances and becomes different
in others? I want not just an assertion but an argument.

And for Bob Ettinger, the first thing I notice about your statements
on this issue is that you've been much more tentative than RBR.
We've even disagreed on this question before, in the sense that I 
think we'll want not just an unnamed experiencing empty self but
preservation of some amount of our memories. My questions are to 
RBR, not to you. AS I'm sure you see yourself, preservation of 
identity raises not only complex questions of fact but complex
questions of value, too, which each of us must answer for themselves.

         Best wishes and long long life for all,

             Thomas Donaldson

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