X-Message-Number: 25450 Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2004 16:07:49 -0500 From: Francois <> Subject: To Richard Well, after reading your latest reply, I'm afraid we must do the gentlemanly thing, and agree to disagree. The whole discussion reminds me of an ancient story I read about Greek philosophers in a tavern, arguing about how many teeth a horse has. Each were giving very well thought of arguments in support of their own points of views as well as refuting the other's arguments, and they were going nowhere. At one point, one of the philosophers asked one of the other patrons of the tavern to referee. They each told him their arguments and then asked that he decide which was the correct answer. The patron went outside for a few minutes, came back and gave them the correct answer. The philosophers were amazed at how quickly he had reached his decision and asked him which of their arguments had been the deciding factor. To which he said that no argument had won him over, he had simply gone to the stable, picked a horse and counted its teeth. Thruth is, we do not have a horse to count its teeth. We do not know what a subjective sense of self is, how the hunk of matter in our heads produces it and what contitions are necessary, and sufficient, for it to arise. What we are saying about brains producing minds is as pertinent as explaining why light goes through glass by saying that glass is transparent. We can label and discuss and argue until we are blue in the face, it will get us nowhere. These answers must await studies that have not been made yet. Just like we now have a solid quantum mechanical understanding of transparency, we will someday have an equally solid understanding of how self awareness works. Until then, it was a most enjoyable discussion and I thank you very much for it. Francois The Devil fears those who learn more than those who pray Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=25450