X-Message-Number: 25539 Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 16:41:04 +0100 From: Henri Kluytmans <> Subject: Survival of QE after disassembly (Sorry for the late reply, I'm kind of busy lately.) I wrote: >"1) I would like to know what kind of new and still unknown >physical forces and/or processes are responsible for keeping the QE >intact in a frozen body that will be destroyed by atomic >disassembly-reassembly ?" Richard answered : >The QE is a hunk of matter in your brain, arranged in a way >satisfying certain relations. If you change the arrangement so that >the relations are no longer satisfied, you have destroyed the QE. But according to chemistry when the original arrangement is restored, the original relations and properties are restored too. >The QE is destroyed by disassembly because the QE is a physical >system possessing certain properties which do not hold for a random >(or disassembled) collection of atoms. In a similar fashion, a dog >is destroyed by a flamethrower because the flamethrower changes the >arrangement of atoms, such that the hunk of matter no longer >satisfies the 'dog relations'. In both cases, the matter does not >cease to exist. But the thing referred to by the noun does. Here you state that the QE is destroyed by disassembly. There is no dispute about that, the dispute is about : Why is it not restored by re-assembly. (Because according to physics/chemistry it should!) >I don't assume any new forces or processes. Good. >Of course, a rebuilt QE will be chemically identical to the >original QE. But it won't be the original QE, as you can >conclusively prove by building a copy while the original exists. To avoid discussion about definitions I will not state here that "the original" is recreated, but only that the reassembled system is the same as the original. I.e. it possesses the same physical properties, and exhibits the same physical behavior. But when a system possesses the same physical properties, and exhibits the same physical behavior as the original, then there is no difference between it and the original. According to physics those systems are interchangable. I can take a system of chemically bonded atoms, I can disassemble it and then rebuild the exact original system. According to physics it should be the same as the original. I could also make duplicates, and according to physics these copies should also be the same as the original system. (According to quantum mechanics, when certain conditions are satisfied, duplicates of systems of atoms can even occupy the same quantum state. (I.e. form a Bose-Einstein condensate.) And this has been witnessed in experiments for separate atoms.) Now, when it concerns dead matter, this seems to constitute no problem. But when it concerns a system that is a substrate for a process that results in human intelligence, then suddenly, for some people, disassembly and re-assembly does not result in restoration anymore... But according to physics there should be no difference between dead matter and (formerly) living matter. Actually, when frozen to a certain low temperature (for example 20 Kelvin, the temperature of liquid helium, or even lower if you like), there are no chemical processes taking place. So the system of atoms (which could be a human body), at such low temperatures, can be considered dead matter too. I would like to know what Richard thinks about disassembly and reassembly of a simple water molecule. Do you also state that this does not result in restoration of the original molecule ? Actually, I think your objections are only of a philosophical nature. It seems that your argument against disassembly-reassembly is a self-made axiom. And I think it was created to satisfy instinctive emotional reasons. I think you do not to want to accept that you are only a process taking place in a system of atoms. And that when the system is frozen, this process stops. Especially the fact that according to physics, copies can be made of the system, including the process, seems to bother you. Therefore you made your axiom : that when the process stops, it is gone for ever, and when it restarts it is not the same process anymore. However because you don't want to lose your identity in a frozen state, you claim that the process is still present in a frozen body. But according to physics, there are no processes in a frozen body. At least, no chemical processes. (Only sporadical nuclear processes.) Because you don't assume new physical interactions, this would mean that according to your self-made axiom your QE would be lost by freezing the body. >I don't have to invoke quantum mechanics to show you that a rebuilt >QE won't be the original QE. I just have to get you to think about >what those words mean. To me, this looks like a confirmation that your objections are only philosophical in nature. (Thinking about words, sounds like philosophy to me.) Your kind of reasoning seems similar to the assumption of certain biologists a couple of decades ago that "a mysterious life-force" had to be present in all living matter. Nowadays, all biologists assume only chemical interactions are responsible for the behavior and properties of living matter. ===== When you assume that your mind is only an information process, then there are no contradictions with physics, and there is no requirement for ackward axioms and mysterious properties. And, as I think even you will have to agree, for information at least, a copy is exactly equal to the original. Regards, >Hkl Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=25539