X-Message-Number: 25595 Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 04:14:55 +0100 From: Henri Kluytmans <> Subject: Re : The Duplicate Molecules Paradox Dear Richard, 1) I continue saying that : "When I take a water molecule apart and then reassemble the water molecule from the exact same atoms, the original molecule is restored." You claim that reassembling a water molecule from the same three atoms does not equal restoring the original water molecule !!! In an earlier post you stated you do not assume new physical interactions. However you do not seem to agree with currently accepted scientific theories concerning physics. According to those, the original molecule would be restored. Did you develop a new theory ? Or also sufficient, can you tell me an experiment that will show that after disassembly-reassembly the original molecule is not restored ? If there is no experiment, and thus we can never tell the difference between between a reassembled water molecule and an original one that was never disassembled, what then is the use of making a distinction. Because that distinction will only be a philosophical one. ==== 2) I could take 3 other atoms, and then assemble a watermolecule, in this case, indeed, it would be different water molecule. I think we agree about this. ==== 3) When the quantum states of both molecules would be exactly the same, according to physics the two watermolecules are interchangable. Yes, they are not the "same one" molecule, but according to physics there is no difference between having one or the other molecule in a place. If atoms (with identical quantum states) would not be interchangable, a Bose-Einstein condensate could never exist. But experiments have already demonstrated that Bose-Einstein condensates do exist! ((A Bose-Einstein condensate can only form from particles with a symmetrical quantum state. These are called bosons and always have integer spin, in contrast with fermions that are particles with an asymmetrical quantum state and have half-integer spins. Only particles with symmetrical quantum state (bosons) can occupy the same quantum states. For example a He-4 atom is a boson, and a He-3 atom is a fermion. These are atoms, but in principle molecules are no different in this respect. In a Bose-Einstein condensate all particles occupy the same quantum state, there is no possible measurement that can tell them apart! It means that all the particles are absolutely identical. Look here fore more information : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identical_particles ==== I can point out other mistakes you made in your last post, but that will only divert the discussion off track. So long as we still have a dispute about 1) discussing other issues about identity, duplicates and reassembly would be a waste of time. ==== Only two more things that I want to mention : >Processes do not exist, they happen, and you cannot under any ... Hmm, so if I would write a self modifying computer program, you would tell me it doesn't exist. What did I create then ? What about a piece of information, for example a file called STORY.TXT is on my HD. But it is only a pattern in the matter of my harddisc. You will probably tell me it doesn't exist... However to me it seems that : -Processes do exist. -Patterns do exist. -A piece of information can exist. >More concept smuggling, indicated by the words: 'restored', 're- >assembly', and most insidiously, by the word 'it'. The use of the >word 'it' in such instances requires a form of platonism, for it >implies the existence of something even after it is destroyed. The word "it" can be used to refer to something that existed in the past. About "restore" the Websters online dictionairy tells me : 2 : to put or bring back into existence or use 3 : to bring back to or put back into a former or original state ===== So I still support my assertion that your claim, that atomic disassembly and reassembly of a frozen human body, or even a water molecule, does not restore the original, is based upon a selfmade axiom. Regards, >Hkl Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=25595