X-Message-Number: 25595
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2005 04:14:55 +0100
From: Henri Kluytmans <>
Subject: Re : The Duplicate Molecules Paradox

Dear Richard,

1) I continue saying that : "When I take a water molecule apart 
and then reassemble the water molecule from the exact same atoms, 
the original molecule is restored."

You claim that reassembling a water molecule from the same three 
atoms does not equal restoring the original water molecule !!!
In an earlier post you stated you do not assume new physical interactions. 
However you do not seem to agree with currently accepted scientific 
theories concerning physics. According to those, the original molecule 
would be restored. Did you develop a new theory ? 

Or also sufficient, can you tell me an experiment that will show 
that after disassembly-reassembly the original molecule is not 
restored ?

If there is no experiment, and thus we can never tell the difference 
between between a reassembled water molecule and an original one that 
was never disassembled, what then is the use of making a distinction.
Because that distinction will only be a philosophical one.


2) I could take 3 other atoms, and then assemble a watermolecule,
in this case, indeed, it would be different water molecule. 

I think we agree about this.


3) When the quantum states of both molecules would be exactly 
the same, according to physics the two watermolecules are 
interchangable.  Yes, they are not the "same one" molecule, but 
according to physics there is no difference between having 
one or the other molecule in a place.

If atoms (with identical quantum states) would not be interchangable, 
a Bose-Einstein condensate could never exist. But experiments have 
already demonstrated that Bose-Einstein condensates do exist! 

((A Bose-Einstein condensate can only form from particles with a 
symmetrical quantum state. These are called bosons and always 
have integer spin, in contrast with fermions that are particles 
with an asymmetrical quantum state and have half-integer spins.
Only particles with symmetrical quantum state (bosons) can occupy 
the same quantum states. For example a He-4 atom is a boson, and a 
He-3 atom is a fermion. These are atoms, but in principle molecules 
are no different in this respect. In a Bose-Einstein condensate all 
particles occupy the same quantum state, there is no possible 
measurement that can tell them apart! It means that all the particles 
are absolutely identical. 

Look here fore more information :



I can point out other mistakes you made in your last post, but 
that will only divert the discussion off track. So long as we 
still have a dispute about 1) discussing other issues about 
identity, duplicates and reassembly would be a waste of time.


Only two more things that I want to mention :

>Processes do not exist, they happen, and you cannot under any ...

Hmm, so if I would write a self modifying computer program, 
you would tell me it doesn't exist. What did I create then ?

What about a piece of information, for example a file called 
STORY.TXT is on my HD. But it is only a pattern in the matter of 
my harddisc. You will probably tell me it doesn't exist...

However to me it seems that :
-Processes do exist.
-Patterns do exist.
-A piece of information can exist.

>More concept smuggling, indicated by the words: 'restored', 're-
>assembly', and most insidiously, by the word 'it'. The use of the 
>word 'it' in such instances requires a form of platonism, for it 
>implies the existence of something even after it is destroyed.

The word "it" can be used to refer to something that existed
in the past. 

About "restore" the Websters online dictionairy tells me :

2 : to put or bring back into existence or use
3 : to bring back to or put back into a former or original state


So I still support my assertion that your claim, that atomic
disassembly and reassembly of a frozen human body, or even 
a water molecule, does not restore the original, is based 
upon a selfmade axiom.


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