X-Message-Number: 26405
From: "David Pizer" <>
Subject: "Cryonics Has No Beef With Religion" - WRONG
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2005 10:16:53 -0700

My old friend Brian said something very wrong and something very right in the 
same paragraph.

Wrong:   Brian said:  "Cryonics has no beef with religion.  Cryonics is not in 
conflict with any religion."

I guess Brian did not read my argument carefully or perhaps he knows some flaw 
in the argument and he forgot to expose it.

My argument goes like this:

1.  Some traditional religions promise people eternal life based on beliefs of 
faith in God and Heaven.  You do what they tell you and they guarantee you 
eternal life.

2.  These religions may be wrong.  It may turn out there is no God nor Heaven. 
Or, He/She doesn't guarantee what the religions guarantee.

3.  People who are told this (#1) may believe in it so much that they may reject
cryonics.  (If there is eternal life through a God and Heaven, you don't need 
4.  Cryonics may work and may lead to eternal or very long life.

5.  People who want eternal or very long life may reject cryonics because they 
believe in #1, and therefore think that is all they need.  

Conclusion:  So people who wanted to live longer don't get to because of what 
religions promised.

*****************Hello Brian - This is a perfect example of a 

Further, no one else so far was able to show a conflict in the argument since I 
first posted the original message on this subject a week ago.  That showing of a
conflict is what I was looking for before I take this argument to a larger 
arena.  I wanted to give our people who know more about this subject a chance to
poke holes in my argument before I took it further so that if there is a flaw 
in my original argument I would know about it ahead and could fix it or drop it.
Because of the lack of such a flaw in the argument, I am now more convinced 
that my argument is sound and that there is a BIG conflict with religion and 
cryonics.  Religion may be preventing people (who want what cryonics may 
provide) from opting for it!

Look, you may think that confronting religion is a mistake and that the world is
not ready for the truth, and you might be right to hold those fears, but can 
you find a hole in the argument that religion may be causing people (who want 
longer life)  to miss out on longer life?   If this argument is correct, this is
a big moral mistake.   If you cause someone to miss out on his/her chance of 
eternal life, or very long life, even if your intentions were good, that is the 
worst thing you can do!  There is no bigger "Bad Deed" that can be done then the
scenario that I have explained above because it involves billions of people and
perhaps thousands or millions or billions of years (or longer) for each person.
Do the math.  It makes Hitler look like a boy scout - make that a cub scout.

Now maybe you (whoever is reading this) don't give a damn.  You have your 
cryonics membership in hand and so you feel you are protected.  You don't care 
about the billions of others who don't have this protection all you care about 
is your selfish little self.  I don't think that is the right kind of attitude 
for people who want to live forever or for a very long time.   Those of us who 
want to live very long lives in this world should be thinking about how to make 
our world a better place.  Sharing critical information is one requirement.  
Requiring others to be truthful is another requirement.  That includes not 
making guarantees that you don't know if you can back up.

Now maybe you (whoever is reading this) realize the above argument is sound but 
you also believe that the world is not ready for such a confrontation.  That 
such a confrontation with religions will lead to a backlash against cryonics and
make the cryonics situation even worse.  I suppose that is how people thought 
when the Nazi organization began to take over power in the 30's in their 
country.  But just as with the Nazi situation, I think that the longer we remain
silent while the status quo causes people to miss out on their cryonics option 
for a chance at longer life, then we are allowing a great wrong to continue on.

If this situation does not seem wrong to you (a person who wants to live in this
world a long time), then I submit there is something wrong with you! 

Right:   Brian also said something in the same paragraph that I had overlooked.
"The field that cryonics really has a beef with is MEDICINE."

We should be thinking about initiating two lawsuits:  One against religion to 
obtain an injunction from them to prevent them from *guaranteeing* eternal life 
based on faith instead of real evidence, and one against medicine for not 
offering (or at the very least - informing about) cryonics as a last chance 
proceedure when all else fails, to those who don't want to be dead right then.

david pizer

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