X-Message-Number: 26458
From: "David Pizer" <>
References: <>
Subject: A reply to Joe W.
Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 10:27:15 -0700

REPLY TO JOE WAYNICK

JOE SAID:  Your > attempt to institutionalize intolerance and hatred of
religion within
> the cryonics community is utterly contemptible. All of the nice words
> and circular logic in the world will not mask the essence of your
> irrational proposal. Shame on you for even suggesting this wacky idea!

DAVID:  Joe, I believe that somehow you have made a giant leap of faith
and/or logic in coming to the conclusion that I hate religion.  I don't know
how to convince you of the truth since you seem so emotionally fired up that
you (seem to me) are not reading correctly the words I have been writing,
and so you have been responding to what you think I believe rather than what
I said.  So let me say it one more time as clearly as I can and if you still
don't agree that I mean ONLY what I write and say then I will only conclude
that you think I am lying.  I only am agreeing to write about this, (it's
kinda personal),  because I think (if you believe it), it will then help you
to help me by causing you to focus on what I am actually saying and
criticizing that if you can (I want to know if my argument has flaws) and to
quit wasting your time trying to criticize what you (wrongfully) think are
my secret or hidden feelings.


MY TRUE FEELINGS:
By: David Pizer

1.  I don't hate religions (I realize some cryoncists do - but I don't).  I
am an agnostic.  I believe that God and Heaven *MAY* exist and they may not.
I believe that cryonics may or may not work.  I believe that we at the
present time cannot know if one or both of them will work to provide
additional life.

2.  I believe that humans have made mistakes in the name of religions in the
past.  So have they made mistakes not in the name of religion.  I don't give
a hoot about the mistakes of the past.  I care ONLY about what we humans on
this Earth are doing now and in the future.  I care about what things we are
capable of doing with our limited resources that will cause the greatest
changes for the good.  I have been in lawsuits, I know how to assess risk
ratios.  I am not reckless.

3.   I hope that religions are correct and that there is a God and Heaven.
I pray for guidance every morning.  (I don't know if any being[s] hears my
prayers?)
Even if there is no being hearing our prayers I think that by expressing our
desires in the form of a prayer (or some equivelant) it helps us to better
understand ourselves.

4.  I honestly believe that because people who run religions are telling
their followers that they ( the followers) can have eternal Heavenly life,
and they make this presentation in an absolute way, they guarantee (if you
will) that these followers can have eternal life in Heaven, those followers
will conclude that they don't need cryonics.  I believe that this will cause
some followers not to sign up for cryonics.  There is not accusations that
the religious leaders know better. If they are making a mistake, I think it
is what we would call an honest mistake.  But the horrible results (if it is
a mistake) are just the same as if they were doing wrong on purpose.

5.  I believe that one of the four possibile outcomes of how reality might
turn out to be is:  That cryonics works and there is no God and Heaven.
(the other 3 possible outcomes are"  Cryonics works and there is a God and
Heaven,  Cryonics does not work and there is a God and Heaven.  and the last
one [I hate this one]  Cryonics does not work and there is no God and
Heaven - and therefore we are doomed to be dead forever).

If you do not believe me when I say these above  things, and if you are
going to continue to insist that I am not telling the truth when I say these
things and continue to to implying that I am not sincere and a man of
integrity, then I have no more respect for you.


JOE SAID:  >    If, in a fit of utter insanity, you were to actually pursue
this
> recklessness in the courts, I predict you will find very few friends in
> the cryonics community.

My main intention is not making friends in a political way as some of you
have to do to keep your present positions,  (I have made a lot of friends in
this community, but I can't compromise my beliefs and morals to win some
political contest. I am not runninng for any cryonics position).  What I
want to do is cause people (like our parents, brothers & sisters, children
who are not signed up because they absolutely believe they are going to live
forever in Heaven) to realize that the religions promise of Heaven is not an
absolute thing.  It is only the hopes and beliefs of some people, just as
the potential benefits of cryonics are only the hopes and beliefs of some
people.

You are a relatively newcommer in cryonics Joe, but any old timer will tell
you that David Pizer does not care about making friends IF truth or
rightness is being perverted.  I have gone up against people in cryonics
several times and every time that it was a major issue it eventually turned
out that I was right and my opponets were wrong.  But in the heat of the
battle that made some people not like me.

This doesn't mean that I will always be right.  What I am trying to show, by
making this statement, is that making friends and winnng in politics (as
some people in Alcor are very concerned about doing) isn't enough to
convince me to go against my moral principles.  It isn't enough to cause me
to stop worrying about the potentially millions or billions of people now
and in the near future that may forego cryonics only because they believe
they may have an absolute guarantee of eternal life in Heaven.

 In closing, I think  you and others are missing the point.   This has
nothing to do with me liking or disliking religions.  This is ONLY about
finding ways to try to save more lives if it turns out that religions is
false.

David

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