X-Message-Number: 26470 From: <> Subject: reply to peter Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 11:22:27 -0700 Reply to Peter's post. I should have replied to this earlier. It was well-done, but I have a some of problems oor questions with it. David PETER SAID: Science is not "more true" or "more right". There is no truth in science - only theory and empiricism. DAVID: I am not saying that one is more true than the other or that either is true. You have missed my point. I was saying what you are now saying - that no human can know at present if cryonics is going to work and no human can know if anyone is going to Heaven. However, cryonics is NOT guaranteeing that it will work, Religion IS guaranteeing that their followers will go to Heaven. I want both of them to not give guarantees. Cryonics presently does not give guarantees, religion does. Actually you are criticizing something here that I have not said, if fact I agree with you and what you are now saying is what I said in the first place. PETER: It doesn't benefit us to do so. It creates needless danger because it can prompt political opposition from religious groups. PIZER: Who is you "us?" People who sign up for cryonics. A person who is not signed up now, but we motivate to sign up soon is a potential "us." I have probably brought as many people into cryonics as any other person, at least in the early years,(except Ettinger of course) and the people I brought in have brought in a lot more people. So thinking about how to help more people obtain the benefit of cryonics is not something new to me. So in my way of thinking the "us" is a pool of all the people that could and might sign up under certain circumstances, but because of religions guarantees, are not interested in doing so. That could be millions of "us" or more. If helping them get signed up and joing is something that doesn't benefit "us" then I don't know what does? We are going to have to face political opposition from religions groups at some time anyhow. Again you miss my point Peter - maybe I have explained it badly. I don't want to attack relgions or harm them. I want them to express their goals more honestly or more realistically merely take out the guarantees and relpace them with "it is our sincere hope and belief that _ _ _ _ _ _ (fill in their message here). Because my main goal is to try to help more people obtain more life. And, I believe at present the best way to cause that to happen is to have all players stop giving guarantees so that everyone who wants more life can honestly understand how reality is today. That's all there is to it. PETER: And creating danger for yourself and your fellow cryonicists is not true or right. It's foolhardy and counter-productive. It won't publicize cryonics or the scientific basis on which some cryonicists make their choices. It will simply antagonize people who have a lot of money to pour into aggressively irrational reactions. PIZER: I see the above claim in about 75% of the responses but NO ONE has given any evidence to suppot that claim. No numbers. No on-point examples. I believe I can do what I want to do without causing religions to attack anyone. If someone believes I can't then I want them to give me objective evidence to convince me. I my intentions are really harmful I want to know that. But I make decisions on hard evidence, only. I believe that with a friendly and respectful lawsuit, I can get religious leaders to consider thinking about how they present their message, what their goals are (helping their followers to obtain longer life - same as ours) and think about whether there is a way to do it better. I think that most leaders in religion want to help their followers obtain more life and if they realize there is a better way to try for that with two chances instead of one, some of them might beging to think about it. PETER: Therefore: If you want to live forever, learn about religion, not for purposes of worship, but for purposes of diplomacy. Learn what makes religion endure. Learn why Tao Chia - philosophical taoism - is always cloaked in Tao Chiao - religious taoism. Learn why buddhists create devotional pictures to someone whom, if met in the road, they'd immediately kill. Learn how St Patrick conquered Ireland without raising his fist. PIZER: All the above is good advice -- thank you. By the way I am in the process of doing that. PETER: Learn how Copernicus, Erasmus, Galileo, Leibniz and Newton cloaked their rationalism in language that could be published without raising the ire of the religous dogmatists around them. PIZER: I am not so sure about if I want to do this as is sound like some sort of deception, which is a form of dishonesty, which is the problem I am trying to cure. I tend to be more successful in asking people I am negotiating with to put the cards on the table, clear the air, consider our mutual goals and work from there. Care to expand on this? PETER: Learn how to create harmony between your rationalism and the irrationalism around you. Learn to be brave and gentle, not brave and bold. PIZER: Can you suggest a better immediate (people are dying every day, time is of the essence) way than a lawsuit to get something going that will cause religions to rephrase their beliefs as just that -- beliefs, and not as absolute truth? PETER: Believe, if you will, whatever you like. But hold your tongue until you can express yourself without endangering yourself. Or the others of us on which your future survival may depend. PIZER: Most cryoncists only think of themselves. I cannot stop thinking of the welfare of the non-cryoncists. People like my family, and friends, and even good people I have never met. Some of them die every day and don't get suspended. There are some things that simply cannot be done without some risks. In these cases the right move is to think about every possible risk in advance and plan to minimize each one. It is in causing this debate on Cryonet and soliciting advice that I am trying to gather info about every possible real risk. But I need ojective and on-point facts, evidence, esperiences, numbers, to make an informed decision. PETER: Hide in plain sight. Show others the way to rationalism without disputing them. Read and understand Dale Carnegie, Robert Heinlein, Robert Anton Wilson, - stop reacting and let your intent and mode of expressing that intent reinforce achieving your intent. Then you'll understand how to deal with religion and religionists. And then you can write harmoniously on the relationship between religion and cryonics here, or anywhere. PIZER: I am in the process of doing something like this with these discussions. I am also doing other things to prepare. The preparation process will take a few years. FWIW. Peter Merel. mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=26470