X-Message-Number: 26470
From: <>
Subject: reply to peter
Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 11:22:27 -0700

Reply to Peter's post.

I should have replied to this earlier.  It was well-done, but I have a some of
problems oor questions with it.


PETER SAID:  Science is not "more true" or "more right". There is no truth in
science -
only theory and empiricism.

DAVID:  I am not saying that one is more true than the other or that either is
true.  You have missed my point.  

I was saying what you are now saying - that no human can know at present if

cryonics is going to work and no human can know if  anyone is going to Heaven.

However, cryonics is NOT guaranteeing that it will work, Religion IS 
that their followers will go to Heaven.  

I want both of them to not give guarantees. Cryonics presently does not give
guarantees, religion does.

Actually you are criticizing something here that I have not said, if fact I 
with you and what you are now saying is what I said in the first place.

PETER:  It doesn't benefit us to do so. It creates needless danger because it 
prompt political opposition 
from religious groups.

PIZER:  Who is you "us?"  People who sign up for cryonics. A person who is not
signed up now, but we motivate to sign up soon is a potential "us."  

I have probably brought as many people into cryonics as any other person, at

least in the early years,(except Ettinger of course) and the people I  brought 
have brought in a lot more people. So thinking about how to help more people
obtain the benefit of cryonics is not something new to me.   So in my way of

thinking the "us" is a pool of all the people that could and might sign up under

certain circumstances, but because of religions guarantees, are not interested 
doing so.    That could be millions of "us"  or more.   If helping them get

signed up and joing is something that doesn't benefit "us" then I don't know 

We are going to have to face political opposition from religions groups at some

time anyhow.  Again you miss my point Peter - maybe I have explained it badly.  
don't want to attack relgions or harm them.  I want them to express their goals
more honestly or more realistically merely take out the guarantees and relpace
them with "it is our sincere hope and belief that _ _ _ _ _ _ (fill in their
message here).   Because my main goal is to try to help more people obtain more

life.  And, I believe at present the best way to cause that to happen is to have
all players stop giving guarantees so that everyone who wants more life can
honestly understand how reality is today.  That's all there is to it.

PETER:  And creating danger for yourself and your fellow cryonicists is not true
right. It's foolhardy and 
counter-productive. It won't publicize cryonics or the scientific basis on
which some cryonicists 
make their choices. It will simply antagonize people who have a lot of
money to pour into 
aggressively irrational reactions.

PIZER:  I see the above claim in about 75% of the responses but NO ONE has given

any evidence to suppot that claim. No numbers.  No on-point examples.  I believe

I can do what I want to do without causing religions to attack anyone. If 

believes I can't then I want them to give me objective evidence to convince me.

I my intentions are really harmful I want to know that.  But I make decisions on
hard evidence, only.

 I believe that with a friendly and respectful lawsuit, I can get religious
leaders to consider thinking about how they present their message, what their
goals are (helping their followers to obtain longer life - same as ours) and

think about whether there is a way to do it better.  I think that most leaders 

religion want to help their followers obtain more life and if they realize there
is a better way to try for that with two chances instead of one, some of them
might beging to think about it. 

PETER:  Therefore:
If you want to live forever, learn about religion, not for purposes of
worship, but for purposes of 

Learn what makes religion endure. Learn why Tao Chia - philosophical taoism
- is always cloaked in 
Tao Chiao - religious taoism. Learn why buddhists create devotional
pictures to someone whom, if 
met in the road, they'd immediately kill. Learn how St Patrick conquered
Ireland without raising his 

PIZER:  All the above is good advice -- thank you.  By the way I am in the
process of doing that.

PETER:  Learn how Copernicus, Erasmus, Galileo, Leibniz and Newton cloaked their
rationalism in language 
that could be published without raising the ire of the religous dogmatists
around them.

PIZER:  I am not so sure about if I want to do this as is sound like some sort 
deception, which is a form of dishonesty, which is the problem I am trying to

cure. I tend to be more successful in asking people I am negotiating with to put
the cards on the table, clear the air, consider our mutual goals and work from
there.  Care to expand on this?

PETER:  Learn how to create harmony between your rationalism and the 
around you. Learn to 
be brave and gentle, not brave and bold. 

PIZER:  Can you suggest a better immediate (people are dying every day, time is
of the essence) way than a lawsuit to get something going that will cause

religions to rephrase their beliefs as just that  -- beliefs, and not as 

PETER:  Believe, if you will, whatever you like. But hold your tongue until you 
express yourself without 
endangering yourself. Or the others of us on which your future survival may

PIZER:  Most cryoncists only think of themselves. I cannot stop thinking of the

welfare of the non-cryoncists. People like my family, and friends, and even good

people I have never met.   Some of them die every day and don't get suspended.
There are some things that simply cannot be done without some risks. In these

cases the right move is to think about every possible risk in advance and plan 

minimize each one.  It is in causing this debate on Cryonet and soliciting 
that I am trying to gather info about every possible real risk.  But I need

ojective and on-point facts, evidence, esperiences, numbers, to make an informed

PETER:  Hide in plain sight. Show others the way to rationalism without 
them. Read and 
understand Dale Carnegie, Robert Heinlein, Robert Anton Wilson, - stop
reacting and let your intent 
and mode of expressing that intent reinforce achieving your intent.

Then you'll understand how to deal with religion and religionists. And then
you can write 
harmoniously on the relationship between religion and cryonics here, or

PIZER:  I am in the process of doing something like this with these discussions.
 I am also doing other things to prepare.  The preparation process will take a
few years. 


Peter Merel.

mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .

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