X-Message-Number: 26546
From: "David Pizer" <>
Subject: Agruments for Flavonoid
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 13:45:29 -0700

Here they are from memory.   David.



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== THE HARM ARGUMENT ==== 


1. Some religions present their beliefs in such a way so as to cause their 
followers to believe there is a religious guarantee that the followers will have
eternal (Heavenly) life under certain conditions. 


2. Some followers believe these religions' claims about eternal salvation and 
eternal life in Heaven, and so some of them would reasonably conclude that if 
these guarantees are valid, as they are promised they are, that they don't need 
any other method of trying to obtain long life - for instance they would not 
think they needed to sign up for cryonics. 

2A. Religions make the guarantee seem stronger by saying they represent God.


3. These claims of eternal Heavenly life by religions may turn out to have been 
wrong. 

There may not be any eternal Heavenly life after biological death on Earth. 


(I am NOT making any claim that there is no Heaven, only that we cannot know for
sure. I am not claiming the religions are lying on purpose, they may just be 
guilty of making an honest mistake - but either way, if there is no Heaven, the 
critical results would be the same.) 


4. Cryonics may work and may lead to very long life, perhaps lead to virtual 
physical immortality. 


5. a. If it turns out that there is no Heaven, and religious followers rejected 
cryonics thinking they WERE going to Heaven, 


b. and, if it turns out that cryonics works and leads to very long life or even 
virtual physical immortality, 


c. then the religions have hurt their followers in the worst way possible for 
every person who they made believe that cryonics was not necessary.



======== WHAT SHOULD WE DO ARGUMENT ========

1. People have an obligation to help other people and to help themselves.


2. If it turns out there is no Heaven and that cryonics works, then helping 
people to opt for both methods of trying for extended life would have been a 
good thing. Helping to bring more people into cryonics helps the people who are 
already in the movement.


3. If we can cause religions to state their messages more realistically, as to 
the religious benefits they hope for rather than portray these beliefs as 
absolute truths, then more people might opt to choose cryonics (and still keep 
their feelings about their religious beliefs). 


4. We are not in conflict with religions. We have many of the same goals - to 
help ourselves and others obtain extended life. We have different ways of trying
to obtain these goals and they are not mutually exclusive. We will not be 
trying to hurt religions.


We are NOT trying to get people to opt for cryonics so they will drop their 
religious arrangements. We just want people to be aware of the truth of the 
world at this time and that truth is that the results of either or both options 
are unknowable right now. 


5. It is hard to get access to the leaders of religions and the attention of 
most of the people in the world. One way to get that attention would be to file 
a lawsuit of some type where the sole stated purpose of it would be to try to 
cause religions to not guarantee eternal Heavenly life but to just state their 
beliefs in that concept as just that - beliefs, and not guarantee eternal life 
in Heaven as a reward for certain actions as an absolute certainty. 


6. There is some danger in doing this as there could be some backlash. But there
may be great potential benefits in that this action may eventually lead to more
people signing up for cryonics. 


7. It is good to discuss these possibilities before taking any action to weigh 
the possible benefits against the possible risks.


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