X-Message-Number: 26553
From: "David Pizer" <>
References: <>
Subject: Re: CryoNet #26542 - #26550
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:20:41 -0700

ROBERT ETTINGER SAID:
 I can do probability calculations, but I need data of known or reasonably
estimated reliability, which I don't have in this case.

DAVID:  neither do I.  I don't think anyone does.
I was hoping for a miracle  :=)
Reply to Eivind Berge

BERGE: Today's terrorist attack on London puts some perspective on Pizer's
 proposed lawsuit against religion. Reminds us that discouraging people
 from signing up for cryonics is hardly the biggest problem with
 religious fanaticism. Until we can be safe from religious conflict in
 our daily lives, why even bother with what religions have to say about
 cryonics?

PIZER:  Well let's look at that happened "today."  Besides the the 50 who
died in London attack,   probably a million oher people died all over the
world. (I don't know the real number, this is just a pure guess for use of
making this point).  Most of them or maybe none of them got frozen.

If my past reasoning is correct, the reason many of them did not even think
about getting frozen is because they thought they were going to Heaven.
They were guaranteed it.  So your example shows 50 people who died because
of what you claim is the results of your position, and I show that thousands
or more who died did not get frozen because of my postion.  If you want to
count numbers alone, you are putting your position in a bad light.

But you are so very wrong in another area.  Let us look at the *reason* why
those terrorists attacked London and were willing to die in the attack or
risk dying, and why they killed those people.

THEY DID IT BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT THAT KILLING WOULD GET THEM TO HEAVEN AS
THEIR RELIGIONS *GUARANTEE.*

===
REPLY TO MIKE PERRY

 No, Dave. It is *not* always true. Suppose your mother will have dinner,
 but you want to have a glass of orange juice first. You know there isn't
 any juice at home, so you stop by a grocery store and buy a carton. You
 will still get the meal in any case. But you get an added benefit that is
 actually independent of whether the meal is waiting or not.

DAVID:  This example is so far off track I don't know how to reply.
What has buying orange juice got to do with a dinner?

MIKE:  That is the way cryonics can be too, and it's the same with ordinary
 medicine. A Christian cancer patient, you might think, would not opt for
 any treatment because if that worked it would only delay his entry into
 Heaven, yet I think you find such people will very often choose the medical
 treatment in hopes it will extend their earthly life.

DAVID:  Usually only when the treatment is not as unusual as cryonics.  Or,
if the doc says there is a pretty good chance the treatment will work.  And,
if the patients thinks it is pretty ordinary.

But remember this?   When organ transplants, blood transfusions, etc first
came out, when they were new as cryonics is now,  many religious persons did
not opt for them because they thought this was a very long shot and coupled
that with the thought they were guaranteed a place in Heaven anyway.

I don't think your example  is true on very unusual options like cryonics.
And, I believe that in a hundred years, the belief in a guarantee of Heaven
(if it still exists) will not preclude people from opting for a more
developed technology of cryonics -- but what about all the people that might
have to be dead forever in the meantime??  Do you care about them?  If you
do, don't you want to try to do something to help them?


MIKE:  Cryonics could be
 seen in the same light, if so presented. I think all too often people don't
 think of it that way and *they* perhaps form the snap judgment that their
 religious beliefs render it superfluous. But clearly it isn't so.


DAVID:  You don't think of it in the same way because you don't believe that
accepting Jesus as your savior is guaranteed to get you eternal life in
Heaven.  Buy this is you and I am talking about them.

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