X-Message-Number: 26555
References: <>
From: David Stodolsky <>
Subject: Re: Finances
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 21:09:59 +0200

This is a repost. Apparently, the July 5th mail (#26502-22) didn't get 
to everyone, even though the posts appear in the archive.

dss


On Jul 4, 2005, at 9:42 AM, Mike Perry wrote:

> At 02:00 AM 7/3/2005, David Stodolsky wrote:
>
>> I suggested that a cryonics friendly church could both increase the
>> population with a financial possibility and "level the playing field"
>> relative to religious organizations. It could also make it possible to
>> sign up large groups of persons with a single effort, potentially
>> multiplying those covered by a factor of two or more. I haven't heard
>> any objections yet.
>
> I don't object either. Attempts in that direction have been made, are
> ongoing even (Society for Venturism, Society for Universal 
> Immortalism),
> but the going so far has been slow.

Certainly, these previous efforts are an asset. However, neither has 
the full compliment of institutional arrangements needed for 
self-sustaining growth. Nor has either reached a critical mass 
sufficient to seed new "branches", as far as I know.

Many other of the elements for a self-sustaining success have been 
promoted. For example, conferences and other educational opportunities, 
both electronic and paper communication media, community formation, and 
development of a comprehensive life philosophy embracing new 
technologies (for example, Extropianism, Transhumanism, etc.) 
Unfortunately, these efforts must be packaged together synergistically 
to succeed, that is, form a way of life that can be self sustaining, so 
a lot of effort has been expended uselessly or at least not yielded its 
full potential.


>
>> Even many non-religious people prefer to leave their estate to their
>> family as opposed to investing it the cryonics experiment. I have no
>> doubt that financial considerations are the primary factor preventing
>> even people in the the developed countries from signing up.
>
> I'd say "discouraging" rather than "preventing"--even though it adds 
> up to
> the same thing, they don't sign up (even if they could). It doesn't 
> seem
> likely that cryonics is ever going to be competitive, price-wise, with
> burial or cremation. The issue is also raised from time to time of 
> low-cost
> alternatives to cryonics, but so far no serious prospects have
> materialized. You make the point too that in the world at large cost 
> would
> be prohibitive--unfortunately probably true, without a massive
> redistribution of wealth. A starting point might indeed be a 
> cryonics-based
> religious movement (where the concept of "religion" could be 
> understood in
> a generalized sense not requiring belief in the supernatural), but 
> again
> it's easier said than done. Such a movement, though, if it could exist 
> on a
> sizable scale, might have sufficient resources to begin to help the 
> needy
> who could not afford the arrangements even as it attracted more who 
> were
> able to help others.
>
> It was nearly 20 years ago (July 11, 1986 to be exact) that the Church 
> of
> Venturism (name later changed to Society for Venturism) was started to 
> try
> to do this sort of thing, and otherwise turn the world massively toward
> cryonics. (David Pizer must be given the main credit for coming up with
> this idea and implementing it as an Arizona-based, tax-exempt 
> corporation.)
> The organization still exists but hasn't exactly had the success that 
> was
> hoped. And I don't see the situation changing much, until scientific
> breakthroughs convince many people to take a different view than they 
> now
> do. No amount of either promotional efforts or legal action can 
> substitute
> for the tangible progress that must be made.

This doesn't seem to be a limitation on the growth of other churches. 
So, I suggest we look for the answer elsewhere.

In terms of finances, the Society for Venturism offers no benefit, 
since members are required to be signed up first. (While there may be 
other financial benefits, I am limiting myself to those which could 
support uptake into the cryonics movement.) As has been pointed out by 
others, there are adequate resources in the developed countries to 
support suspension for entire populations. The question is what 
institutional arrangements are necessary to reallocate the resources 
(most current sign ups are dependent upon institutional arrangements in 
the form of life insurance).

If we look at the problem from the standpoint of the sociology of 
religion, the elements required are institutions to administer rituals 
(including marriage ceremonies), a supportive worldview, and 
educational institutions.

 From the psychological point of view, there must be immediate benefits 
and long-term costs. The current sign up procedures are just the 
opposite. The individual must accept the reality of death, reject the 
advice of authorities and often the objections of loved ones, and then 
jump thru a series of financial and legal hoops, which hopefully lead 
to a benefit in the very distant future. Just how difficult this is, is 
evidenced by the gap between expressions of interest to cryonics 
organizations and completed sign ups, and the "sign up parties" that 
are held periodically. An institutional framework that requires only a 
single signature to get you enrolled is what is needed (In fact, with 
many major religions, all you have to do is make a verbal declaration - 
not to mention that extremely bad things can happen, if you change your 
mind).

Probably all of resources for a comprehensive effort are already 
available within the cryonics movement. For example, donation of 
suspensions by the current providers. Suspensions have been offered 
previously as a method of generating publicity.

Legal talent to finalize paperwork, marketing skills, etc. are likely 
also available. The whole effort needs to be put together with a 
"business" plan and then there has to be a commitment of seed capital.

Before being distracted by work on a related European Union research 
proposal:

http://hcva.secureid.org/about

I started a mail list of persons who were willing to assist in building 
a database critical to the functioning of the new organization. This 
included non-technicals who were willing to contribute in other ways or 
to serve as the first test users. Anyone who wants to be added to that 
(Life Science Initiative - LSI) List should drop me a mail from the 
address they would like to use for that purpose.


dss


David S. Stodolsky    SpamTo: 

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