X-Message-Number: 26585
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 04:54:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: "D. den Otter" <>
Subject: Re: Response to D. den Otter

"Mathew Sullivan" <> wrote:

<<Speaking for myself In the case of my father who
died of a sudden heart attack, I was fortunate to get
the pathologist to remove the brain for free since the
option for autopsy was already available.>>  

Yes, this option should be available in many hospitals
around the (Western) world. Arrangements or at least
inquiries should be made in advance, if possible.

Btw, why did the brain have to be removed? This
doesn't sound like a standard cryonics procedure.

<<Efforts were made to minimize damaged during the
removal process, but I was less than pleased as a
result of the damage done from saw cuts.>>

This kind of damage is probably quite trivial compared
to that caused by warm ischemia, the suspension
process itself, and whatever degradation may happen
during long term storage. Indeed, you could even
plastinate or fix & freeze dry brain slices instead of
whole brains, see: 

http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/dsp.cgi?msg=17457

http://www.kfunigraz.ac.at/anawww/plast/p35.html

http://www.kfunigraz.ac.at/anawww/plast/e12.html

Clean, straightforward cuts etc. will presumably be
easy to repair with nanotech and similar advanced
techniques. In any case, the aim is to preserve
information, not a functioning brain.

<<In light of the various brain surgeries that go on
these days, I m sure there have to be less damaging
ways to remove the brain.>>

No doubt, but we also need to keep it simple and
affordable. This means not looking gift brain
extractions too deeply in the mouth, among other
things. This is the poor man's ambulance to the
future; no room for fancy equipment and protocols,
just the bare basics. 

<<I would caution against room or refrigerated storage
due to the lack of supporting evidence for long-term
storage,>>

Well, plastinates and even freeze dried animals can
apparently be kept at RT for many years without
visible degradation. Keeping them at -20*C or so, in a
dark, airtight container should significantly extend
their already impressive (decades at the very least in
the case of plastination) shelf life.

And, again, the aim is to develop an affordable
procedure, not an optimal one. Personally I firmly
believe that even relatively crude methods like
plastination and freeze drying will preserve enough
structural data for a successful identity
reconstruction, certainly when combined with DNA
samples, video recordings, writings, and other
external information sources. Collection and storage
of said data sources should be an integral part of the
procedure. 

<<but you may want to make a mental note that we have
evidence of vitrification after fixation with 7
months of diffusing cryoprotectant into the brain.>>

You mean that (non-toxic, non-flammable)
cryoprotectant could be used instead of formaldehyde
etc. for fixation? And the cryo-fixed specimen could
then be freeze dried to get rid of residual water?
That would certainly be interesting... 

<<I m sure we will get around to writing an article at
some point for the magazine, but there are plenty of
other projects needing attention these days.>>

I understand that you have other priorities, but Alcor
or the other organizations could also assist in less
labor intensive ways, by 'donating' some floorspace
for storage freezers, for example. Finding a place
where we can legally store human brains would
-presumably- be one of the greatest challenges, after
all.

As mentioned before, the cheap emergency alternatives
could be promoted via a separate non-profit outfit for
legal / PR reasons, if so desired, with the cryo org
simply renting out a room to a fellow preservation
provider.

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