X-Message-Number: 2716
Date: 01 May 94 03:44:32 EDT
From: Mike Darwin <>
Subject: CRYONICS Ettinger, Donaldson, Identity

By no means should Bob feel that it was a mistake to put his postings on
the net regarding philosophy.  It took me quite sometime myself to "get
the hang" of the net -- it is very different than writing for
publication, writing letters, or conversation.  In some ways it combines
the best (and the worst) of all three.  Putting preliminary and
incomplete thoughts or the tip of the subject out on the net is OK,
encouraged even, because unlike with writing in a magazine or journal IF
people are confused or find what you say incomplete they can (and often
(frustratingly) damn well will) ask you.  The only thing you have to be
willing to do is to make a reasonable committment of time to deal with
the thread you've started as its spun out on the net and answer people's
questions and expand your thoughts.  Even here its no great fax paus if
you haven't the time to do so, etc.

I say these things not to "lecture" or be pedantic, but rather to
encourage Bob and others to by all means continue.  And to have a thick
skin about looking silly -- EVERYONE takes turn at that on the net; its
not like conversation -- your words sort of just hang there, and hang
there...

Anyway,  I thought Bob's response was a good one and I agree that the
really "interesting" changes ahead for us both as a species and as
individuals are exactly along the line Bob suggests.  Natural selection no
doubt did an untidy and quick and dirty job of configuring us.  Hell,
something like 3/4ths (or more), of our DNA is introns, just so much
useless garbage selection pressure hasn't edited out.  We are a first cut
by a monkey at a typewriter with a sadist for the "critic/selector." 
Look at most life forms: brutal, brutal, brutal! Aimed only at passing on
genes and often in the most barbaric and cruel way.  And all of it blind,
utterly BLIND.

People often come here on tour (school groups) and it is usually a young
woman who will make a remark with some degree of outrage to the effect
that "You are messing with the natural order of things..."  I point out
that there is no cosmic design to life beyond SURVIVE.  That the universe
just doesn't give a damn.  During the Permian extinction 99% of all life
forms were wiped out by terrestrial volcanic upheavals. Crinoids were the
dominant form of life for millions of years -- now there's almost none of
them left!  When that asteoid plowed into the Yucatan and ended the reign
of the dinosaurs nothing above a body weight of 25 kg survived.  The
masters of the earth for millions of years were wiped out in an eyeblink
(in geological time).

*The natural order of things is to mess with things any f------ way you
can to stay alive as well as possible for as long possible.*  At least
that's the only "natural law" I've been able to discern.  Of course none
of this is taught in school and the perspective of the average human
being is so warped compared to what the reality of life has been (and
still is) that it is unbelieveable.  I speak not in some high minded way
here, but rather out of sadness and frustration.  As Carl Sagan points
out in *Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors* we are ALL like foundlings left
on the cosmic doorstep with no real idea of where we came from orwho we
are.  While a few us have some grasp of the basics, I agree with Bob
completely (and feel that this is an important, almost religious insight)
that the journey has just begun, both in terms of knowing where we have
been and in terms of knowing where we are going.

I often point out to these indignant young women that the natural order of
things has made HUMANKIND, a creature capable of rational thought, of
compassion and ultimately of putting and end to the blind, wasteful and
utterly cruel process of natural selection by the ever so natural process
of thought, planning, and DESIGN.  If the natural order of things is also
to struggle towards effeciency and decency then replacing blind selection
with thought, planning and consciouness are certainly good first steps
and, looking around the neighborhood, we seem to be the only ones who
currently fit the job description.

While all of this may seem far afield from musings about identity, perhaps
not.  As Bob points out, knowing what we SHOULD want may be a big part of
the puzzle, and if survival is the goal then there are an awful lot of
folks out there who haven't even the tiny first clue we cryonicists have
got as to what's the right the thing to do.  

I still don't know how to "make" a peacock, but I raise them and I know
how to keep them alive and to keep them happy even if I don't always
understand every detail of it. 'Same's true of being alive.  WHATEVER it
is (and yes, it is very important to understand it) I want it to continue
and it is not necessary for me (or anyone else) to understand the Kreb's
cycle when I feel hungry and sit down to dinner.  The same is true of
cryonics.  You pays your money and you takes your chances.  Granted its a
LOT of money (even at CI's rates) for some folks.  But if you are
expectig the universe to care, all I can say is remember the dinosaurs!

Thomas, I did not mean to imply that thought experiments cannot make real
progress towards a better understanding of identity.  But I think we need
a lot more biology and maybe physics too.  I've long thought about the
many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics and mused about a
commonplace practical implication if it were the correct or "true" state
of affairs (See the recent  SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN article on time travel for
a  cogent explanation of the many worlds interpretation).  One way to
solve the "poverty problem" would be to round up all the homeless and put
them booths.  Each would be issued a lottery ticket, the outcome to be
determined by a quantum event selecting the winner or winners.  The
winner will be taken care of for life, made a millionaire in fact.  The
loosers will all be painlessly gassed.  Now in every case in SOME
universe everyone will win.  Thus, each universe is saddled with taking
care of only one unfortunate or wastrel, as the case may be.  Very fair! 
Of course this could be applied to people suffering in need of organ
transplants.  Set up a lottery and painlessly euthanize the loosers -- in
the universe in which they "win" they will go on to be transplanted,
happy, etc.

I point this seemingly silly chain of reasoning out because it might not
be so silly.  The universe seems to be a very strange place and seemingly
meaningless (i.e., disconnected from our daily reality) aspects of
physics can suddenly loom very important.  I have a hunch (and if I have
not misread him) I think Bob does too, that future growth in our
understanding of physics may shed some powerful light on the nature of
identity.  It's just a hunch, but its a pretty deep one.  Certainly my
position has become less dogmatic and a little more removed from the
information-theoretic criteria than it once was.  In the meantime we pays
our money and we takes our chances.

Oh well, enough of this rambling for now.

Mike Darwin

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