X-Message-Number: 28406
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 13:07:32 -0600
From: "Anthony ." <>
Subject: re: genes and memes

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 On 9/6/06, egg plant <> wrote:


> Both genes and ideas are
> made of the same thing, information,


 "Gene" is a concept which explains biological observations, and explains
them so well, we can effect biological changes.

"Meme" is a concept that seeks to explain socio-psycho. observations. It
explains them so poorly, that only Dawkins fanboys use them on their blogs.


> both can easily duplicate themselves;

some memes in the meme pool and genes in the gene pool hinder survival, but
> natural selection insures that most do not.


 Natural selection effects the organism on 3 levels - species, individual,
and genetic. Inheritable traits that help (or at least do not hinder)
survival are more likely to be passed on, resulting in adaptations to an
ecology.

How does natural selection work in this way on ideas? Please explain.

Biology ultimately reduces to genetics. Do ideas ultimately reduce to memes?
If so, then *what* exactly *is* a meme? Please cite an idea and locate the
meme within it.

If you are saying a whole idea is a meme, then delineate the boundaries.
Where does the one idea (meme) end and another begin? How can you account
for the historicity of an idea?

Furthermore, the "meme" concept is based on an analogy - but a very poor
one. Memes are supposed to infect us like a virus. But viruses are nothing
like ideas. Read about "ideas" in an encyclopedia, then about "viruses". The
basis of the analogy falls away - so too the concept.

Finally, you are again expressing the tired philosophy of dualism. Ideas
come from living beings - ideas are biological artifacts, no more different
than a chimps idea to wash her sandy food in the water (an idea younger
chimps in this troop imitated and older chimps did not). An idea does not
exist in a seperate mental realm - watch an idea emerge from a mouth or get
written down by a hand. The "meme" concept strongly implies a mental realm,
seperate from the body. Please point out where this spooky place is.

If I remember correctly, Dawkins first wrote about "memes" in the 70s. What
have memes done for us or explained to us during that time that other
concepts have not adequately covered?

Not only do "memes" assert weird notions about the origins of ideas and the
workings of the mind, they have no theortical value.

A word on ideas - people are not rational. The history of ideas demonstrates
this with abundant evidence. We respond to ideas which give us a sense of
power, control, security, and meaning. We do not respond to ideas because
they have "survival value". Such "superior ideas" do not "infect" us.
Evolution and culture are not a matter of progress, but survival. The forces
of evolution do not care for truth or reason.

The human brain (of which so many of us are proud) processes about 14
million bits of information per second. But we are conscious of *a mere* *18
bits per second* - about a millionth of our total awareness. Most of our
functioning is thus animalistic - automatic, subconscious *not in our
control, never mind in our awareness*.
Does this sound like an animal that freely wills itself according to careful
rationality? Or one which is overwhelming directed non-rationally?

When the Catholic Chruch slaughtered the free-thinking Gnostics and later
the Cathars, was that because their meme was superior?

Now that humans have brought about the current mass-extinction - one which
rivals the previous 5 mass-extinctions in size and scope - is that because
our memes are superior and are ensuring our survival? Weird way to survive,
destroying all the life we depend upon. (Currently the rate is 3 animal,
insect or plant species an hour.)

I suggest a new neologism - the "nene". The nene is a concept that describes
anyone who employs the concept "meme" without having any convincing rebuttal
to my criticisms.

Anthony

P.S. for cryonetters who don't like this sort of things, don't worry - I
suggest that this conversation be moved to the semi-associated threaded
forum "The Cold Filter". I've set up the thread here:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/291677/message/1157654847/Memes+and+Nenes

Nene John, please infect me with your memes there.

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