X-Message-Number: 2842 Date: 01 Jul 94 01:29:33 EDT From: Mike Darwin <> Subject: CRYONICS Cosenza's question Dave is quite right to express surprise at my remarks. I am happy to share my sources. About a year after Jerry was cryopreserved his wife (Kathy) asked to meet with me. We spent a number of hours talking about many things related to Jerry and this was one of her assertions. I expressed surprise: she backed it up wih letters and other material which were in her posession. Basically, judging from that material, Jerry did not feel that cryonics, whole body or otherwise, was very likely to work for GIVEN patients; what I found surprising was that he included (as I understood it) most or all or the people frozen today. Kathy told me quite specifically that Jerry had told her on many occcassions that if he (Jerry) were frozen using today's techniques he did "not think he would be coming back." Kathy and I talked for quite some time about this and the related issues of Jerry's motivation. My remark in my recent posting was too brief (and probably shouldn't have been made) because this is a very complex issue. (about which I will offer the following *opinions*: 1) Jerry was a far more complicated man than certainly I (and probably a lot of others) thought. 2) Pursuant to #1 Jerry, like everybody else who is complicated, probably said things in different ways to different people which were then interpreted in ways unique to these individuals. This is not dishonesty, just tailoring communication to different people's needs. 3) Notwithstanding #2 above there are clearly VERY different, even conflicting accounts of conversations Jerry had and of positions he took via a vis both issues and people. And further, these conflicts are reported by people generally given high marks for integrity and with no axes to grind. Again, this doesn't mean we're dealing with lies or untruths, but just with the range of how people express themselves and how others react to it. 4) As to how Jerry felt about cryonics, I too had conversations with him over the whole course of our relationship (which relationship ran the gamut from good to bad) and I repeatedly tried to "pin him down" on how he felt about revival odds. He was always very evasive with me and always answered my questions in terms of the right of people to choose, of the morality of a choice for life, and of the importance of cryopreservations as they contributed to research and growth of understanding which would lead to perfected techniques. If Jerry was more forthright with you, that's nice to hear. However, I have to weigh what he said to his wife, what he said to me, and what he said to others close to him who were not cryonicists (some of whom I have also talked to regarding this issue). 5) Even if Jerry felt cryonics wasn't likely to work personally (I hold the same position in that I think the the OVERALL chances for success are only 2-3%) he was not obligated to foist his opinions on others and he above all respected other peoples' rights to make their own judgments and further, he respected those judgments most of the time. What I am saying here is that it is possible to MORALLY participate in helping people achieve an end which they feel both worthwhile and potentially practical without necessarily sharing their belief. Many people would say if there is only a 2-3% chance of cryonics working it is not worth the trouble and that it would be wrong to pursue it. In fact, I have had patients (who I have cryopreserved) tell me that if they thought the odds were as low as I did they wouldn't bother. So what?, to each his own. 6) Most to the point, Jerry is not around to clarify his position so we are left with "conflicting" statements. Again, no big deal. I wouldn't for a minute try to persuade you to hold any position on this issue other than the one you do -- after all you say Jerry TOLD you PERSONALLY how he felt!) However, one statement I would question you on: Jerry's "advocating" cryonics. There is a difference between advocacy and stating that something is a reasonable thing to do. In my over 10 years of association with him I don't think I EVER heard Jerry advocate cryonics to any one at any time. I could be wrong and perhaps others will put their 2 cents worth in. Finally, it needs to be said that Jerry Leaf made tremendous contributions to cryonics and tremendous contributions to my own growth and knowledge. I loved and admired him and still do. Frankly, I don't give a damn what his motivation was (beyond simple curiosity) but I would not at all be surprised to discover that it was to gain knowledge for the discipline and help people whom he thought were well informed, thoughtful, and decent exercise their own good judgment about what was right for them personally. In fact, if I am sure of anything it is AT LEAST that those things regarding Jerry's motivation are true. What better motivations could you ask for? Hopefully, with a lot of luck and hard work Jerry will be able to settle this issue PERSONALLY. In the meantime we'll just have to form our opinions. Mike Darwin Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=2842