X-Message-Number: 28449
From: "egg plant" <>
Subject: Memes and Genes
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 16:35:27 +0000

Mr. Anthony Autophagy  Wrote:

>do you see human activity in general as geared
>towards the survival of the species, or to the
>survival or particular in-groups
>(e.g. nations, cultures)?".

No, and there is no reason to think it would be. Human activity is geared 
toward the survival of genes and memes.

>Genetic drift is one of the "natural selection" pressures

No, you are entirely wrong.

>Interestingly, you do not point out why my
>statement was stupid

I had thought after my comments you'd at least take the time to do a simple 
Google search on the term and you'd see for yourself why it was stupid, but 
I guess I must spell it out. Genetic drift is notable precisely because it 
is NOT affected by natural selection, just by random mutation. It refers to 
the fact that the number of neutral mutations will increase in a population. 
You can use genetic drift to tell how long two populations have been 
separated because the random mutation rate is about constant over time and 
the DNA changes won't be effected by natural selection because this DNA 
doesn't do anything except reproduce itself. The best way to study genetic 
drift is to look at the junk sections of the genome because all mutations 
there are neutral.

>Language is not a meme, it is a physiological effect of genetic drift

So language was caused by genetic drift, that is to say language was caused 
by neutral mutations.
Mr. Autophagy that is just stupid.

>Genetic drift is part of the basis for mutation.

Absolutely positively 100% backward. Mutation is the  basis for genetic 
drift, and not just part of it, it's the entire show. I know it sounds cool 
but you really should have at least a little understanding of a term before 
you use it in a sentence.

>Mutation is a selection pressure.

No, selection pressure works on the mutations not the other war around.

>Perhaps I used the term too loosely, and should
>have just stuck to the unambiguous "mutation"

It would have been less pretentious and less comically wrong but it would 
still be wrong. Mutation could never have produced language or anything else 
of much interest because mutation is only half of Evolution, the other half 
is natural selection.

>Genes do not simply replicate, they require bodies,

Memes do not simply replicate,
they require brains,

>size is one of many examples that describe
>physical animation and physical form

Translation: Size changes the appearance of things and the way it moves. A 
keen grasp of the obvious, but I don't quite see what that has to do with 
the price of eggs in China.

>but with levels of conceptual abstraction which are based in corporeal 
>experiences

Removing the pompous language and all you're saying is  with ideas based on 
experience . I'll bet you studied physiology, they're masters of that sort 
of thing, take some old platitude and dress it up in $10 words private 
jargon and convoluted sentences until every utterance sounds enormously 
profound. It's not.

And then for reasons known only to you, you start babbling about memes and 
bacteria.

>When genetic information is stored as such,
>it is genetic information, not a gene.

I will let the readers decide from the above for themselves how much 
understanding of genetics or information Mr. Autophagy has.

John K Clark    

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