X-Message-Number: 2848
Date: 04 Jul 94 21:46:37 EDT
From: Mike Darwin <>
Subject: CRYONICS  local groups

Robert Cardwell urges to me "drop all pretense" and just admit that I am REALLY
talking about the Australian group (and thus ROBERT CARDWELL).  Actually, while
this will probably be incomprehernsible to Robert, I had other situations in
mind (since one of my contract companies is wrestling with the issues of
covering overseas clients: none of whom, incidentally, happen to be in
Australia, and most of whom are in even worse places (logistically).

I have no problem with most of what Robert has suggested.  IF you genuinely take
the time to learn to do these things right, that's great.  But to do these
things right without practice requires TIME and that committment of time has
(never) to my knowledge been made by made by small groups of cryonicists.  If
Robert's group has done this, that's wonderful news.

The situation I'm speaking of unfolds like this:

1) The country has few if any committed members and those they do have can not
or will not work well with each other because of distance, personality
conflicts, etc.  Since Robert wishes me to very be forthright I will be so
regarding his situation; I have talked with a couple of other Australian group
members who say they (and this their word) HATE Robert Cardwell and who claim
that others in the group "can't stand him either."  Whether this is true or not
I do not know, and what is more *I do not care*.  I bring this up because
Robert has asked, more or less, for an evaluation of HIS situation.  If this is
the truth then there could be problems when cooperation is required.

2)  Everything takes longer than is expected.  The member goes down and it takes
time to put the FIRST person on the scene.  It takes even MORE time to get the
member, the equipment, chemicals and the REST of the needed people together.
Because of limited skills and logistics problems the member does not get a
top-notch CPR supported transport (a difficult thing to do in ANY event)
resulting in the start of the ischemic injury cascade.

3) It takes time to get unfamiliar equipment set-up and the unfamilar procedure
of mixing things completed.

4) Meanwhile personnel needed to facilitate prompt shipment are tied up tending

to the member. (Yes, I know mortuaries can help with this, but it is rarely that

5) It takes more time still to get the member on water ice to the US and to

TOTAL ELAPSED TIME:4-5 Days best case.

QUESTION: Which is worse, autolysis or cryoinjury from straight freezing.?

ANSWER: I don't know for sure, but I'd go with straight freezing if it was me.

Now, as I said at the start I was NOT specifically considering Australia today.
I don't know what your capabilities really are and if you can do a reasonable

job with CPS and TBW and get the patient to the US in 24-48 hours I'd say you're
following the right course of action.  I will also say I doubt you can do this
yet, but then that just gives you extra incentive to prove me wrong, which is
all to the good for everyone concerned (even me!).  More to the point I would
say that if this is so (that such capabilities exist) YOU are probably the only
one who can do that, in which case if YOU are the patient in question straight
freezing becomes an even more attractive option, does it not?

In any event you are quite right that local groups should concentrate on what
they can do.  All I am saying is that in my experience with most local groups

that is not very much.  And in fact the experience(s) I had freshly in mind were
not the Australian case (although the time delays and logistic problems
encountered in that case certainly helped to shape my thinking).

Mike Darwin

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