X-Message-Number: 2858
Date: 07 Jul 94 01:52:48 EDT
From: Mike Darwin <>
Subject: CRYONICS Who's bullshitting whom?

Dave Cosenza says a lot about what I didn't say.

I have never said nor implied that non-cryonicists should be in charge of
cryonics organizations or in charge of cryonicist's lives.  I DID say that
noncryonicists can work well under supervision.  And I will further say that
noncryonicists can and have made advances in cryonics care based on reason and
based on a desire to do a good job, and so on.  Many of the technological
improvemenmts to surgery of the sort that Dave describes have been made here in

related areas by people who look at a problem and say "Hmm what if we do it this

way instead, that could be easier, save time, save money."  In fact, a couple of
the people who work for us (Boon and Mike Fletcher to name two) have been very
good at this.  Belief in cryonics does not translate to ability to solve

problems nor does disbelief translate to an inability or unwillingness.  Indeed,
most problem solving such as that done by Keith is done to save work and make
things go better (As Heinlein said, most technology is created by lazy people).
In point of fact, Mike Fletcher came up with the idea of using
automotive/industrial hose clamps to tourniquet off limbs in Neuropatients -- a
solution which works quite well and much better than the system Hugh developed

at Alcor.  Mike was not impeded in making this innovation (a real time saver and
absolutely fool-proof -- unlike the tourniquet and pipe method previously in
use) because he is not a true believer.

I would also point out that just because people don't actively believe doesn't

me they don't have some passive belief.  Boon is very concerned when he does one
of our cases and is very nervous and yes, he treats the patient as if s/he were
alive?  Why?  Well I think Boon thinks cryonics could work, in fact polls show
that about 60% of the people in US do (why aren't they all signed up?).  Such
people, when confronted with a real patient, will tend to act differently than
if they were a piece of meat.  Again this is based on first-hand experience.

However, the higher up the ladder you go, the more important it is to consider
patients alive.

Dave puts words in my mouth when he suggests that Judge Micelli and others who
helped did so because I presumed that they wanted to save Dora Kent.  Far from
it.  I specifically said otherwise.  All I was trying to do was to point out
that help can come from many quarters for many reasons and it is unwise to cut
yourself off from it on the basis of ideological games.

As to being a libertarian, there are as many flavors of that as there are colors
in the rainbow.  I am not an anarchist.  And as to the question of States'
rights, in the context of the statist environment in which we live your life

would undoubtably be a lot more comfortable if that principle had been upheld at
the conclusion of the Civil War rather than trampled on further.  There would,

for instance, quite probably be no FDA, ICC, or other alphabet agencies.  On the
other hand there would be some states (individual states) which would be more
repressive places to live in -- however even there that would have been capped
by the Supreme Court and its application of the fundamental principles of the

As to who ran and who didn't:  I seem to recall a number of people sitting
around in handcuffs, a number of people who didn't open their mouths and
disclose damaging information (like where Dora was) and a number of people who
worked diligently to save the day.  While I would certainly include Carlos and
Jerry I would include others as well.  How convenient of you to forget to

mention Saul Kent who was at Jerry Leaf's side every step of the way and who was
critical in providing financial and intellectual input from the get-go.

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