X-Message-Number: 30040
References: <>
Subject: Re: CryoNet #30030 - #30034
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 12:56:54 -0500
From:
I suppose that I might qualify as that PhD social scientist that Dave
refers to. Speaking only for myself, I cannot remember a time when I
did not fear death. Perhaps growing up in Toronto as a small boy during
World War II, I was aware through the pervasive news reporting and
total war preoccupation of our friends and neighbors that the war was a
terrible necessity, terrible especially because young boys a few years
older than me were facing death on a daily basis. The recent Ken Burns
series should be enough to remind all of us that fear of death was the
predominant concern of the young men who had to go to the front lines.
They were scared as hell but the social circumstances and compulsions
of group life forced them to do what they desperately didn't want to
do. It was not courage. The courageous ones for the most part just
died. If they didn't fear death for whatever reason or mental
calculation, they likely died sooner and were thus less helpful in
winning the victory which their elders had decided (wisely in my
opinion) was absolutley necessary for the survival of the group system
in which we were all embedded.
Fast forward twenty years and I see and hear this guy talking on the
Johnny Carson show and for the first time I realize that this thing
that I have feared might have a possible out, a very slim chance,
perhaps, but it just might work. To this day I do not understand why
millions more of my fellow human beings, exposed to the very same
message, did not respond the way I did. I am a lifelong student of
human nature, and by some standards, an expert on the matter, but I
still don't get it.
There are many possibilities, and I think Dave is right that we should
explore them and apply a bit of science to the question, but our
resources as cryonicists are extremely limited and I doubt that the
proper answers are easily gotten.
There is no doubt in my mind that fear of death and the perceived
chances of forestalling death are the major motivational drivers of the
vast and expanding medical research-development-and-care system. So why
isn't cryonics accepted anywhere as an appropriate end-stage solution?
I don't know. When a young man was struck down in New York by the
premature misfortune of a deadly disease, his family chose to have him
frozen. I believe he might have been the second case overall. I thought
it might be a real breakthrough for us because he was so young and the
loss so painful for family and friends, but nothing much happened as a
result, and, in fact, I belive he was later destroyed.
Maybe there is no one answer to why fear of death does not swell our
ranks, and if there is one, I sure don't know what it is. It is good,
however, that the cryonet has finally hit upon a topic of great
relevance on which we can engage in animated discussion after a long
lull of irrelevance and silence.
Ron Havelock (CI Member, Harvard grad, Personality and Social
Psychology PhD, Optometry Doctorate, long time researcher on
communication and knowledge transfer, hence I should know all the
answers but I don't.)
-----Original Message-----
From: CryoNet <>
To:
Sent: Tue, Nov 20 5:01 AM
Subject: CryoNet #30030 - #30034
CryoNet - Tue 20 Nov 2007
#30030: Re: a bit more on fear of death [Chris Manning]
#30031: Review of SA News Bulletin Number 11 [perfusion333]
#30033: Re: a bit more on fear of death [David Stodolsky]
#30034: Fear of death agin [hrhirsch]
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Message #30030
From: "Chris Manning" <>
References: <>
Subject: Re: a bit more on fear of death
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 22:05:06 +1100
----- Original Message -----
From: "CryoNet" <>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 9:00 PM
Subject: CryoNet #30028 - #30029
[snipped]
> Message #30029
> From:
> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2007 15:20:45 EST
> Subject: a bit more on fear of death
>
> Those who insist that unconscious or inherent fear of death is
universal
> and
> inescapable are simply absurd and not paying attentiion.
>
> There certainly is a nearly universal "survival instinct" in a
restricted
> sense, viz., that when faced with imminent threat most people, most
of the
> time,
> will try desperately to escape. Anybody will try to dodge a tiger or a
> taxicab.
It might be better if you don't make assumptions about what members of
this
group do for a living. I realise these were intended purely as
examples, but
as a taxi driver myself I constantly have to dodge pedestrians, who in
inner
(downtown) Melbourne walk where they like, when they like, with
impunity,
and if you have the temerity to tap your horn, they give you a finger.
Such
people certain do *not* 'try desperately to escape'.
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Message #30031
From:
Subject: Review of SA News Bulletin Number 11
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 12:48:33 +0000
--NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_18941_1195476513_0
I have posted a review of the SA News Bulletin Number 11, on my
sorely-neglected blog, here:
http://cryomedical.blogspot.com/2007/11/sa-news-bulletin-number-11.html
The last paragraph reads:
"It's time for Ms. Baldwin to show us what she is made of. Is she a
manager, or a mouse? Ms. Baldwin knows the salaries and consulting fees
being paid by SA are inappropriate; she could have qualified personnel
for the same price, (actually, for much less). She also knows the
selection of personnel and consultants is inappropriate. The SA
personnel are extremely underqualified to perform medical procedures,
yet some of them are being paid more than three times as much as
paramedics, and ridiculously more than what they should be paid for the
tasks they perform, (building Platt's designs, basic bookkeeping,
text-messaging their friends, etc). Finally, if Ms. Baldwin approves of
the equipment SA is using, it could only be because she is unaware of
existing, more professionally constructed, less expensive alternatives.
When are the REAL changes coming, at SA, Ms. Baldwin, or are your hands
tied?" Are you the REAL manager of SA? Do you actually have the power
to change things, or
are w
e going to keep getting more of the same foolishness in regard to
unqualified personnel, lack of progress and total fiscal
irresponsibility?"
I've been reluctant to criticize Ms. Baldwin, but all I see from SA is
more of the same, with just a few changes, most of which Aschwin de
Wolf and I suggested a long time ago. Unfortunately, I believe our
suggestions bruised Platt's fragile ego, causing him to retaliate with
no small amount of subversive tactics that I believe were intended to
drive us away. At least he was successful, in that regard, as both
Aschwin and I did resign. (And, don't let Platt get away with saying he
resigned before we did, he was still managing SA, even after his
resignation, everyone who was there, knows this.)
Melody Maxim
--NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_18941_1195476513_0
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Message #30033
References: <>
From: David Stodolsky <>
Subject: Re: a bit more on fear of death
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 22:07:49 +0100
On 18 Nov 2007, at 21:20, wrote:
> Those who insist that unconscious or inherent fear of death is
> universal and
> inescapable are simply absurd and not paying attentiion.
You are the one not paying attention. The research on this is clear,
there is a reflexive avoidance of death of the self.
>
> There certainly is a nearly universal "survival instinct" in a
> restricted
> sense, viz., that when faced with imminent threat most people, most
> of the time,
> will try desperately to escape. Anybody will try to dodge a tiger
> or a
> taxicab. (There are "abnormal" exceptions even to this, as in the
> "martyrdom" of
> zealots.)
These are not exceptions. Martyrs don't see that they will die, the
see a transition to heaven, etc.
The problems you and others have had in 'selling' cryonics is a lack
of understanding of the psychology of marketing. If you want to be
effective, you have to aim at the right demographic, the middle aged,
and 'sell' the right thing, typically *not* a suspension contract
alone. Having missed the right demographic, the next best bet are
relatives, who have not already made philosophical adjustments in
facing death that rules out cryonics.
CI was smart enough to get a PhD cryo-biologist to work on biological
problems. If it wants to see an improvement in marketing, it will get
a social science PhD to deal with social issues. The question is not
just one of marketing, but of survival, once cryonics becomes a
political issue. This is not just a threat to potential patients,
but to all in suspension when the issue gets big. Religious fanatics
have repeatedly killed doctors who perform medical procedures they
don't approve of, they could also kill suspended patients and any
staff that happen to be around, if they decide there are already 'too
many people' on the planet - a current popular view -, or some other
irrational idea pops into their heads. (Note that none of these
assassins were ever labeled "terrorists" and you will get an idea of
the likely government response to an attack.)
dss
David Stodolsky Skype: davidstodolsky
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Message #30034
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 22:53:37 -0500
From: hrhirsch <>
Subject: Fear of death agin
Here is the reason, for whatever it is worth, why I sent out Bob
Ettinger's quotation on Fear of Death: I thought the idea that, while
the dead do not suffer, they do not have much fun, was witty. I don't
take it seriously. Like most people I do fear death, and, like most
cryonicists, I want to come back and have some more fun.
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