X-Message-Number: 3060 From: (Thomas Donaldson) Subject: CRYONICS: re #3056,3057 Date: Sun, 4 Sep 1994 22:04:10 -0700 (PDT) Hi! Actually, in terms of damage done, many cryonicists know a good deal. If they have taken the trouble to read the appendices to CRYONICS: REACHING FOR TOMORROW or THE PROSPECT OF IMMORTALITY or other cryonics literature this will certainly be true. The main problem with experiments on turtles, frogs, etc is that even though these animals can survive freezing to a few tens of degrees below 0 degrees C, they are still killed by freezing to LN temperatures. Not only that, but freezing even of mammalian organs to those temperatures comes close to being a solved problem (I refer not to LN temps but to, say, -20 degrees C). It IS both true and interesting that many such animals, as part of their preparations for being frozen, make glycerol, and the glycerol level in their blood rises. Why do we want to go down to the temperature of liquid nitrogen? Because even at -30 degrees C destructive chemical reactions continue --- though very slowly. BUT we expect to be frozen for a LOOOONG time, and those higher temperatures, just under freezing, simply aren't low enough for the times needed. Furthermore, if you get the latest issue of THE IMMORTALIST (from THE IMMORTAL- IST SOCIETY, 24443 Roanoke, Oak Park, MI 48237) you will be able to read of an experiment on sheeps brains, freezing without cryoprotectant, down to LN temperatures. This caused a lot of destruction, and the cells clearly could not revive on their own. They would need a lot of help and reengineering. AT THE SAME TIME, for cryonics the results were a bit hopeful because close scrutiny could show enough survival so that methods can be imagined which might do that repair. The main capability we need for that repair is methods of altering the structure and components of all the damaged cells and tissues. This means that we must be able to work at a submicroscopic level on all the cells at once. (That sounds impressive until you reflect that after all, that's what all of our drugs do already ... those that are put into the blood to spread throughout our body). In cryonics there is now a lot of talk about nanotechnology, and many cryonicists believe for some unknown reason that this nanotechnology must necessarily do better if it were implemented without reference to all the things we have begun to do in controlling chemistry, biochemistry, forming special viruses to modify cells, metachemistry (use of chemical techniques to make new materials on a higher than molecular scale) and so on. I would be happy to be revived by any sufficient technology at all, but the possible means for revival extend much further and (in the case of biotechnology) are already in their early stages. It is the most advanced form of such manipulations. Materials science remains a bit behind, but it's been doing lots of interesting things. Metachemistry is almost even with materials science (it is use of very clever techniques from chemistry to control matter on a molecular scale). Right now cryonicists don't have a lot of research money, and what there is goes to other (qualified) cryonicists. If you are interested in some kind of job in this field, the best people to approach are probably Biopreservation, Inc. One of their main movers is Michael Darwin, who can be reached on Compuserve at 75120,575. Biopreservation will hire people who are not cryonicists. They basically suspend people for a prearranged payment, and transfer them afterwards to some other organization for permanent storage. I hope this provides some perspective about cryonics to your posting. Long long life, Thomas Donaldson Rate This Message: http://www.cryonet.org/cgi-bin/rate.cgi?msg=3060