X-Message-Number: 30781
From:
Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 11:16:44 EDT
Subject: self interest and cryonics
DSS misses the point, and so do many others.
The point is not whether we have evolved for self sacrifice--as obviously,
to some extent, we have, along with other mammals at least--but whether our
conscious decisions OUGHT to be made in our own (probable long term) interest.
We ordinarily make choices based on what we want or think we want, usually
with trade-offs or compromises between conflicting or partly conflicting
goals. In most cases we give little or no conscious thought to analysis of our
ostensible wants or needs. In particular, in many cases the bad decision is
made
to follow the herd or follow tradition or indoctrination, at the expense of
your actual potential welfare.
DSS himself thinks religion is a major impediment to cryonics. Well,
religion is one of the tendencies rooted in evolution, so clearly, at least in
this
instance, he thinks we should not submit to our indoctrination or idealism or
outmoded heritage. My position is that, if we explicitly acknowledge the
exclusive validity of self interest--even though we are not yet in a position
to
be always confident where our self interest lies--then we are more likely to
question previous assumptions and be suspicious of societal pressures.
I don't agree that religion is a major factor in resistance to cryonics, for
reasons I have spelled out several times. I do agree that it would be
helpful if cryonics organizations could offer some of the group satisfactions
that
some other associations and movements do, but I'm not aware of any effective
means to this end, beyond what we are already doing. DSS as I recall wants to
raise and spend millions on a public relations campaign, a suggestion of
little if any apparent value.
What is within reach of the individual, what is feasible, is to question
your indoctrination and previous assumptions, and face the fact that what you
ought to want is what is most likely to benefit you, directly or indirectly, and
refuse to make any sacrifices except the sacrifice of one interest for
another of higher priority.
Robert Ettinger
Message #30775
From: David Stodolsky <>
Subject: Re: self interest
Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 15:16:28 +0200
References: <>
On 26 May 2008, at 17:08, wrote:
> It is logically and physically impossible to
> be motivated by anything other than self interest.
>
> Failure to understand this is one of the major psychological
> obstacles to
> cryonics.
Within psychology, certainly social psychology, the recognition of the
group as an independent entity, that is, as an emergent property of
the assembly of individuals, has always been recognized. The idea that
group behavior is just the sum of individuals' behavior has repeatedly
proven to be inadequate.
In evolutionary theory, there was an attempt in the 1970-80s to
explain away group evolution via kinship (shared genes). This has also
been shown to be inadequate. Now evolution is thought to occur on the
cellular, bodily, group, and ecosystem levels. In the book "Unto
Others", the example of a worm, which sacrifices its life for the good
of its fellows, is given. The above argument is that the human, by
definition, is not capable of such behavior.
Within economic theory, particularly behavioral- and neuro-economics,
the realization that the traditional 'economic man', motivated only by
self interest, is no longer a tenable model is becoming dominant. Now
we can see that there are brain structures that respond to inequity
and to the 'common good'. These are independent sources of reward and
motivation, beyond self interest:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080428094212.htm
> the research, funded by the Economic and Social Research Council,
> shows that most of us will act in the best interest of our team --
> often at our own expense.
Definitions are arbitrary. However, if you define 'self interest' such
that it permits people to act in a way that is detrimental to them, it
isn't particularly useful. If you define it any other way, then you
are in contradiction to the behavioral and brain data. The continued
retaining of this view is equivalent to a religious conviction, at
this point. It is the theology of neo-liberalism.
Economism is a major threat to cryonics, since it promotes a
distribution of wealth that makes suspension impossible for the vast
majority of the world's population, thus destroying most of the
potential market. I discuss Economism in an earlier message.
As I have shown in my reanalysis of the Badger data, the major
psychological obstacle to cryonics among individuals is religious
belief. Within the cryonics movement, the major psychological obstacle
is the individualism, we see expressed here, that maintains a
marketing strategy that is ineffective. This conclusion is supported
by the research on longevity attitudes and on attitudes toward
nanotechnology. All evidence points to a general mental mechanism that
makes cultural background (group identity) a determinant of reactions
to new technologies.
dss
David Stodolsky Skype: davidstodolsky
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