X-Message-Number: 30869
From: "Jens Rabis" <>
References: <>
Subject: Destruction of the neuronal person
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 10:45:09 +0200
Hello,
for me, is a fresh preserved corpse a person (philosophical).
A little shock on vitrification-bodies, makes explosive cracks ... the
German scientists say. I want my eyes to not close, it has done me hurt, to
be heard.
We need a "Biostase" (all biological processes are stopped), without not
killing the neuronal person.
I do not know whether a constant temperature of -145 degrees Celsius, is
promising: An approved animal experiment (slaughter) would be very expensive
... is there a technology where one constant at -145 Grad Celsius, an animal
brain molecular / atomic can analyze!?
Until it so far is:
Cryonic-Institutes please should think about other options for the
preservation (except only cold).
I request the revolutionary idea of private property to my conserved
molecules / atoms and genes! There must not necessarily be frozen.
Best Greetings
Jens Rabis
-----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----
Von: CryoNet [mailto:]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 15. Juli 2008 11:00
An:
Betreff: CryoNet #30864 - #30865
CryoNet - Tue 15 Jul 2008
#30864: AW: CryoNet #30857 - #30863 [Jens Rabis]
#30865: Economist Tyler Cowen on cryonics [Mark Plus]
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Message #30864
From: "Jens Rabis" <>
References: <>
Subject: AW: CryoNet #30857 - #30863
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 12:18:16 +0200
DSS @
I translate German-English with Google. I must write short sentences.
My opinion:
Ice crystals, the smallest vibration or tension (because of temperature
fluctuations) can synapses destroy.
It does not matter whether you live (!) or dead (!) (as fresh corpse) will
be frozen ... ice crystals, the smallest vibration or tension (because of
temperature fluctuations) can synapses destroyed.
For memories, we need a lot of neurons + synapses.
Only neurons is not successful memory.
Only synapses is not successful memory.
Only undamaged neurons + synapses = successful memory.
Do you understand?
Here is a Bundle of electric cables.
http://www.arcadiabay.de/images/parts/Kabel/tv_jamma_kabelbaum_gerollt.jpg
The Bundle of electric cables has different colors. If the Bundle of
electric cables destroyed in the middle, you can repair it. Every child can
do that, color to color!
"Synapses-cable" do not(!) have different colours. The neurological person
is dead! What say neurologists? I'm just a mechanic.
I ask German members, information on the Cryo-German technology to say.
After England, Russia, USA and Australia!
-145 Grad Celsius with liquid nitrogen is possible! Without temperature
variations, fully automatic.
http://www.ibmt.fraunhofer.de/fhg/Images/Fraunhofer_Cryo_Brehm_tcm266-118167
.pdf
Best regards
Jens Rabis
http://www.jr-europe.org
-----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----
Von: CryoNet [mailto:]
Gesendet: Montag, 14. Juli 2008 11:00
An:
Betreff: CryoNet #30857 - #30863
CryoNet - Mon 14 Jul 2008
#30857: Re: frozen souls? [David Stodolsky]
#30858: AW: CryoNet #30855 - #30856 [Jens Rabis]
#30859: Re: CryoNet #30855 - #30856 [Piotr Blass]
#30860: Re: frozen souls? [Kennita Watson]
#30861: Re: frozen souls? [Harmony] [Jeff Davis]
#30862: Re: Frozen Souls [Shannon]
#30863: Cryonics and the Soul [FlavO Noid]
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Message #30857
From: David Stodolsky <>
Subject: Re: frozen souls?
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 11:37:14 +0200
References: <>
On 12 Jul 2008, at 12:00, Harmony wrote:
> when a people decide to go to cryonics and be frozen, he/she will
> be dead in the tube, right?
The information death criterion is used in cryonics, so suspendees are
not considered dead.
They are considered to be in the same state as an anesthetized person
undergoing a medical procedure.
dss
David Stodolsky Skype: davidstodolsky
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Message #30858
From: "Jens Rabis" <>
References: <>
Subject: AW: CryoNet #30855 - #30856
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 12:21:16 +0200
Hello,
to the soul I would not say anything - it is Lotto - but memories in the
brain:
The remembrance works with neurons + synapses. What happens to the fine
synapses, if you have a brain freeze?
Note: Germany cool with liquid nitrogen at -145(!!!) Grad Celsius. Fully
automatic (without temperature fluctuations). This have built geniuses!
Already know?
http://www.ibmt.fraunhofer.de/fhg/Images/Fraunhofer_Cryo_Brehm_tcm266-118167
.pdf
Best Greetings
Jens Rabis
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Message #30859
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Subject: Re: CryoNet #30855 - #30856
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Message #30860
References: <>
From: Kennita Watson <>
Subject: Re: frozen souls?
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 09:04:23 -0700
Hello, Harmony:
First, no one has been revived from cryonic
suspension. It will be some years before the
technology to do that is developed. However,
people have been clinically dead for hours
and been revived without apparent harm, and
embryos that have been frozen for months or
years have developed into apparently normal
babies.
Second, "clinically dead" is not the same
as truly dead. Truly dead is forever, with
no chance of revival no matter how much
technology advances, such as when you are
burnt to ashes. Clinically dead is when
your heart and brain have stopped, but your
most important pieces are all still there,
which means that there is a chance of
reviving and restarting you given enough
technology. Today some people can be
restarted using electric paddles, for
example (which were not available 100 years
ago). Persons in cryonic suspension will
require much more advanced technologies that
we have not yet developed in order to restart
them -- maybe 100 years from now.
No one has been revived, so we can't know,
but consider the concept that your soul
is frozen along with your body, and that no
time passes for either of them until you are
revived. Another possibility is that your
soul knows that you might be back, and just
hangs out in whatever soul-space it was in
before you were born. I'm sure there are
many other possibilities, and as you say,
you can't know (that's why we point out that
cryonics is an experimental procedure). I
wouldn't worry about it -- most likely we'll
be fine.
Live long and prosper,
Kennita
Harmony wrote:
> I've written here already, though i still have questions and fears
> about
> cryonics..... maybe some members had this question in the past, but i
> wasn't the memeber in that time so i take this question now....
> so, when a people decide to go to cryonics and be frozen, he/she will
> be dead in the tube, right? But, if they will be dead, how it is
> possible
> to preserve the soul inside their body? i mean, maybe body can survive
> the freezing, but my question is that the person who had been frozen
> will be the same person or alike a robot? I know it sounds strange,
> and
> scary, but it is an important question i think.... if you beleieve
> in that
> you can reincarnate after your death, how is it possible to get
> back the
> same soul in the same body, becouse it is possible that your soul had
> been reincarnated in another body? o course we cannot know,
> horeality, but we never could know what is after death..... and
> another
> question: have been ever woken up any cryonics memeber from death
> from freeze? I mean, that it is okey that you freezeing people, but
> any
> of them are among us today in live? Sorry for my english... so these
> questions are very heavy i think..... can anyone answer for these?
>
> Thanks a lot:
> Marta Valentinyi (Harmony)
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Message #30861
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 15:23:47 -0700
From: "Jeff Davis" <>
Subject: Re: frozen souls? [Harmony]
On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 2:00 AM, Harmony <>wrote:
>...when a people decide to go to cryonics and be frozen, he/she will be
dead in the tube, right? But, if they will be dead, how it is possible to
preserve the soul inside their body? ... how is it possible to get back the
same soul in the same body, ...
Marta,
The soul is not a scientific notion. It can't be detected, located,
measured, or characterized in the scientific way of material stuff in
the material world. So if it exists, science simply has no way of
addressing the question of how it works or how it would respond to the
freezing of the body to which it belongs.
I'm being gentle with you here, Marta. Cryonicists, as I know them,
largely view their undertaking as scientific and materialist.
Metaphysical/religious notions (ie the soul) may be viewed as relics
of an earlier, unscientific age of mysticism and superstition, and not
relevant to any rational purpose.
Best, Jeff Davis
"Everything's hard till you know how to do it."
Ray Charles
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Message #30862
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 20:54:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Shannon <>
Subject: Re: Frozen Souls
Hi Marta,
No problem with your English, I think I can understand your concerns. Many
of us at some time have had the same questions. You are right that we don't
know what happens after death, that will be for us to see. No one has been
brought back from being preserved with Cryonics. People that may be healed
in the future by advanced medicine, from what would now kill them, just as
we can heal many who would have died in the past--are not seen as 'all the
way dead', or 'information dead'. They are preserved, if cryonics does not
someday work, then they will be considered dead. So if cryonics does not
work, then it does not matter to the person. If cryonics does work, they can
decide how well it worked, or do more good per their religious or moral
beliefs, or their own life outlook--or they can choose to not continue
living (just as those alive now, can).
If there is reincarnation, then the higher power that is reincarnating, may
want you to do more work, or live longer before you are brought to live with
that higher power, in that case cryonics would work if that higher power so
wished.
Anyway good luck with your searching, hope you have a good feeling about
your choices in life :-)
Shannon Vyff
From: Harmony <>
Subject: frozen souls?
Dear Members,
I've written here already, though i still have questions and fears about
cryonics..... maybe some members had this question in the past, but i wasn't
the memeber in that time so i take this question now.... so, when a people
decide to go to cryonics and be frozen, he/she will be dead in the tube,
right? But, if they will be dead, how it is possible to preserve the soul
inside their body? i mean, maybe body can survive the freezing, but my
question is that the person who had been frozen will be the same person or
alike a robot? I know it sounds strange, and scary, but it is an important
question i think.... if you beleieve in that you can reincarnate after your
death, how is it possible to get back the same soul in the same body,
becouse it is possible that your soul had been reincarnated in another body?
o course we cannot know, horeality, but we never could know what is after
death..... and another question: have been ever woken up any cryonics
memeber
from death from freeze? I mean, that it is okey that you freezeing people,
but any
of them are among us today in live? Sorry for my english... so these
questions are very heavy i think..... can anyone answer for
these?
Thanks a lot:
Marta Valentinyi (Harmony)
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Message #30863
From: "FlavO Noid" <>
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 02:03:01 -0500
Subject: Cryonics and the Soul
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I am immensely impressed with the sensitivity folks are showing here to a
person who asks what happens to the soul when one is cryopreserved.
Except possibly with Dr. S who thinks he knows when "information
theoretical death" occurs, which he doesn't . :)
To the original poster, I would suggest a comparison with what happens to
the soul when someone falls into an icy cold body of water, is pulled out
and there are no lifesigns, but with proper rewarming, comes "back to
life". There are many such reports. Some of these folks have some
pretty vivid dreams to share later (OBE's they are called). Whatever
soul they had before, obviously stayed with them the whole way.
This comes from a person mainly agnostic about the idea of a soul, and I
wish you well in your quest.
--
Be Yourself @ mail.com!
Choose From 200+ Email Addresses
Get a Free Account at www.mail.com
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Message #30865
From: Mark Plus <>
Subject: Economist Tyler Cowen on cryonics
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 12:19:32 -0700
Tyler Cowen in Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler_Cowen
Marginal Revolution post:
http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2008/07/who-wants-cryon
.html
"I wonder if people who already look weird, for whatever reason, sign up at
disproportionate rates. I suspect not and that only some very particular
preexisting unusual traits predict an interest in cryonics. Is the best
predictor of signing up is interest in science fiction? If so, does this
mean that the non-signers are simply people who are not able to imagine the
potential benefits? Or does an interest in science fiction already label
the person in some way where the marginal image cost of signing up is then
especially low? Both cryonics and science fiction of course have very high
rates of male participation, some exceptions aside. I predict that the
reading of fantasy novels does not so well correlate with interest in
cryonics, once you adjust for any prior interest in science fiction."
_________________________________________________________________
It's a talkathon - but it's not just talk.
http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_JustTalk
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