X-Message-Number: 31197
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 15:36:02 -0500
From: 
Subject: Re: CI Merchandise suggestion

  In CryoMsg #31191 Shannon Vyff wrote:

> I love your bumper stickers Ben, can you add "Live Forever or Die Trying"

   In CryoMsg #31192 Ben Best wrote:

>    Thanks for the suggestion, Shannon. The shirt
> slogan "I will live forever or die trying"
> was too long for a bumper sticker, but by your
> shortening it slightly it is just about
> the right size. Thank you! I have just
> placed it first on my list of bumper stickers:
>
> http://www.cafepress.com/ShopCI/6193808

   In CryoMsg #31194 Douglas Skrecky wrote:

> I would suggest altering the T-shirt with the logo "I will live  
> Forever or Die Trying" to be the same as the bumper sticker "Live  
> Forever or Die Trying". The later has a nicer (and less solipsistic)  
> ring to it.

   Your short suggestion raises many issues, Doug.

   Your use of the word "solipsistic" is telling. Literally
the word is inappropriate because it refers to epistemological
isolation from the world. In an ethical context it has the
connotation of being even more isolated from concern about
others than the more appropriate terms "egoistic" or "egotistic".

   Your basic point seems to be that it is more socially
acceptable to present radical life extension ("reaching for
physical immortality") from a humanitarian than from a selfish
point of view. That may be true, but it seems inappropriate
to me. Aubrey de Grey has succumbed to the humanitarian
approach -- by his own admission as the result of his marketing
efforts and his speaking to journalists -- in his references
to how many people die every year when describing the
potential benefits of SENS.

   One reason I think the "humanitarian" approach is
inappropriate is because only a tiny fraction of humanity
shows any interest in radical life extension. The vast majority
think that radical life extension is unnecessary for religious
reasons. Many of those people believe that it is an evil
attempt to thwart God -- or an expression of atheism. (The
"medical model" of cryonics is hard to sell.) And the vast
majority of atheists have no interest, either. I have had
extensive experience trying to promote cryonics to humanists
and atheists with virtually no success. The main problem is
not that they don't think that it will work -- they simply
don't have an interest in it, and often think that it is
socially undesirable. I do not believe that it is
humanitarian to force radical life extension on people
who do not want it. Charles Platt has said that he thinks
CI is unethical to allow people to cryopreserve parents who
have expressed no opinion on the subject of cryonics. Charles
thinks burial or cremation should be the default. I don?t
go as far as he does in this respect. I think that a loving
parent would be delighted to find themselves reanimated
into the arms of their loving child, no matter what their
current conceptions of cryonics.

    I personally like to see people expressing a selfish
interest in cryonics and life extension. Such people share
my passions and I feel affinity with them. I also am more
trusting in their commitment. The fact that such people want
their loved-ones to be cryopreserved or to otherwise live
indefinitely long is perfectly understandable to me.

   To me, "Live Forever or Die Trying" actually sounds less
"nice" than "I will live forever or die trying". The
former sounds like a command telling people to do something
which they may not want. I do like the fact that it is
shorter and will fit on a bumper sticker. I am not allowing
my personal opinions to restrict what CI is offering as
bumper stickers, shirts, etc. Although I don't like references
to "freezing" (rather than vitrification), death or immortality
-- as well as implied guarantees of success -- I have been
giving CI Members the slogans on products that they have
requested. So in response to your suggestion to use
"Live Forever or Die Trying" INSTEAD OF
"I will live forever or die trying", I am using the former
IN ADDITION TO the latter as a T-shirt slogan:

http://www.cafepress.com/ShopCI/6206857

     -- Ben Best

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