X-Message-Number: 31515
From: David Stodolsky <>
Subject: Re: religion declining
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 09:39:03 +0100
References: <>

On 17 Mar 2009, at 10:00 AM, 2Arcturus wrote:
>>>> Message #31495
>>>> From: David Stodolsky <>
>>>> Subject: Re: CryoNet #31480 - #31487
>
>>>> The use of "religion" and "highest ideals" as equivalent doesn't
> conform to common use, as has been pointed out earlier.
>
> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion.

Wikipedia is known to be unreliable and biased.


>

> Also the initial discussion on definition of religion in my article 
http://jetpress.org/volume15/jordan2.html 
> .
>
> I esp. like Clifford Geertz's famous later formulation, which I  
> paraphrase, "religion is what integrates world view and ethos. That  
> is, religion is what relates the broadest and deepest possible  
> understanding of the world with the way of life, attitudes, and  
> beliefs that correspond to this world view in an emotional, value- 
> laden way."

Geertz is one of the fathers of post-modern social constructionism,  
which is regarded as fashionable nonsense by most scientists, who have  
bothered to pay any attention to it at all.


>
>
> I am not attached to the word, religion. One could call it  
> worldview, philosophy, lifestance. But from a scholarly point of, I  
> feel the appropriate technical term for the phenomenon is 'religion'.

For analytic purposes, we need an operational definition.


>
>
>>>> This could be a result of the fact that it is the center of  
>>>> cryonics
> activity and that could be due to the size of the Country or other
> factors making it possible for a tiny minority to organize  
> effectively.
>
> Maybe. But it is just a problem for the thesis of the article that  
> was presented, if it is applied to support for cryonics.

It isn't a problem for the article, because many other factors could  
account for the fact. On the other hand, it is a mystery why more  
secular Europe is seemingly a less favorable environment for cryonics.


>
>
> It may also be a complete coincidence, but I find it interesting  
> that the first cryonics facility in Europe has gone up in one of the  
> most traditionally religious countries in Europe, Russia.

All of the ex-communist countries are very secular, regardless of  
their traditional state. Suppression of religion for several  
generations had its effect.

The concentration of vast wealth in the hands of a few after economic  
restructuring could explain this. Also, some of these extremely wealth  
individuals have lots of body guards and a high risk of death by  
violent means. So, mortality and existential concerns could be brought  
to the fore at an earlier age than expected.


>
>
>>>> Also, any idea that Italy is a secular society fails to recognize
> the degree to which religion saturates that society, both in terms of
> belief and in the power of the Catholic Church.
>
> Well, that was the presumption of the article, the generalization  
> that Europe is more 'secular' than the USA. But I would agree that  
> there is religiosity in Europe, esp. by my definition. I would  
> expect more support for cryonics from those indirectly influenced by  
> Roman Catholicism's ideals about the value and immortality of the  
> individual, etc., even if they are not traditionally 'pious'. Also  
> there are strongly countercultural 'secular' individualist  
> worldviews in Italty, e.g., Nietzschean prometheanism, that might  
> also be more supportive of cryonics.

There are many interesting hypotheses that could be tested and there  
might even be some data sets around that could be used free or at  
minimal cost. The General Social Survey (GSS) comes to mind. However,  
these questions only become interesting if they prove useful in  
promotion. That would mean that the different religious groupings  
would have to react differently to promotional materials. However, as  
Badger (1998) noted, the only apparent differences are between atheist/ 
agnostics and others.


>
>
> I would argue USA and European laws and political systems reflect  
> worldviews very clearly, and this is where the potential conflict  
> with cryonics comes from, since most people, in the USA or Europe,  
> disagree with both with the practice of cryonics and the  
> assumptions, ideals and beliefs, upon which the practice is based.

While this appears to be true, it doesn't become important until there  
is a political showdown. In that case, Europe would probably be a less  
dangerous environment. We know that it is more secular and that about  
a third of UK Omni readers would choose cryonics. With a supportive  
block of voters of this size, most politicians would see the wisdom of  
making the law acceptable.

In the long term, however, an approach that changes the worldview is  
needed. This is what I have been suggesting.


dss

David Stodolsky
                     Skype:  
davidstodolsky

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